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  • Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660
    #30272 In reply to: Post Pro Disc C ?’s |

    Generally, an artificial disc replacement (ADR) should not cause reversal of the cervical curve. Curve reversal is typically caused by degenerative disc disease as the height of the discs are responsible for the lordosis and loss of disc height reverses the curve.

    ADRs were thought at one time to reduce adjacent segment disease (ASD-wear of the segment above or below) but it turns out to be the patient genetics that really are the cause of ASD.

    I am surprised that an ADR was used for myelopathy treatment as generally, you should want the segment that injured the cord to be fused to prevent further cord injury. It is not irresponsible to use an ADR for myelopathy but just not recommended.

    Left thumb pain and numbness is the province of the C6 nerve root which exits between C5-6 so it is possible that your C5-6 segment is breaking down and you are developing foraminal stenosis and a C6 radiculopathy.

    If the prodisc is failing, you would have pain in your lower neck. If you are developing bone spurs at C6-7 (ADRs do not prevent bone spur formation), the C7 nerve would be complaining.

    See: https://neckandback.com/conditions/symptoms-of-cervical-nerve-injuries/

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660
    #29903 In reply to: Neck stenosis |

    You appear not to have myelopathy (disruptive compression of the spinal cord) as you have good balance and no complaints of paresthesias (pins and needles) in the upper extremities. This is as well as “moderate spinal canal narrowing” with no report of significant cord compression by the radiologist.

    You do have a degenerative level C5-6 with moderate to severe foraminal stenosis which could cause a C6 radiculopathy. See https://neckandback.com/conditions/symptoms-of-cervical-nerve-injuries/

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
    Shawss
    Participant
    Post count: 1

    I had c5-c7 Anterior Cervical Discectomy with Fusion because of herniated discs and severe spinal compression, with cervical myelopathy. I was diagnosed after having an MRI.

    I had all the classic symptoms

    Bad Gait
    hyperreflexia
    clonus
    etc..

    In addition, I also had Thenar eminence atrophy which still remains today after the surgery.
    I have searched and asked if Thenar eminence atrophy is a common symptom of Cervical myelopathy and have never received a clear answer. I was happy to see your article.

    https://neckandback.com/conditions/cervical-central-stenosis-and-myelopathy/

    “This is a picture of atrophy of some hand muscles (the thenar eminence) that commonly accompanies cervical myelopathy.”

    Can you please elaborate on how common this is with cervical myelopathy?
    Is the atrophy permanent?
    what can be done to rebuild the thenar eminence muscle?

    Thank You for your time.

    Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660

    You mother complains of “pain in her left arm, radiating to the hand”. This is somewhat helpful but not very specific regarding the specific history of her disorder. See https://neckandback.com/conditions/how-to-describe-your-history-and-symptoms-of-neck-shoulder-and-arm-pain/ to better describe her symptoms.

    Since only the C6-C8 nerves (originating from C5-6 to C7-T1) will refer down to the hand, we can ignore the levels above (C2-5).

    One of the problems in the radiological report is this radiologist does not identify right vs left severity. His description of C6-7 is suspicious for left sided foraminal stenosis as well as central stenosis (“At C6-C7, a disc osteophyte complex abuts and indents the cord and displaces nearly all CSF from its periphery. The central canal and neural foramina are markedly narrowed”). See https://neckandback.com/conditions/radiculopathy-pinched-nerve-in-neck/ and https://neckandback.com/conditions/cervical-central-stenosis-and-myelopathy/.

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
    exspine
    Participant
    Post count: 3

    Dear Dr. Corenman,

    Three months ago I made an MRI of my cervical and lumbar spine, and the reason being that I knew that I had a small disc herniation at C5/6 (asymptomatic) and that I occasionally did get a ‘thrown back’, symptoms of which lasted for couple of weeks once and usually cleared within few days with every episode. I was mostly active and asymptomatic (running total of 8K five days before the MRI). When I say mostly asymptomatic, I did tend to get pins and needles in my hand, and some pins and needles in my pinky toe when flexing the foot inside.

    To my great surprise these were the results of the MRI:

    Cervical spine

    – Straightened lordosis of cervical spine
    – Initial spondyloarthritic changes in small intervertebral joints
    – Disc degeneration C4/5, C5/6 and C6/7
    – Compressive disc osteophyte complex c3/4 and c4/5 dorsomedial and right compressing thecal sac and medula spinalis but without myelopathy. Also compressing radixes bilaterally
    – Also herniated discs C5/6 and C6/7 dorsomedial bilateral, with compression on radixes bilaterally, thecal sac and medula spinalis without myelopathy
    – No foraminal stenosis
    – No cervical stenosis

    Lumal spine
    – Stenosis of vertebral canal at L3/4, L4/5 and L5/S1
    – Disc degeneration at L3/4, L4/5 and L5/S1 with Modic2 type changes
    – L3/4 herniated disc with annular tear without compression
    – L4/5 herniated disc with annular tear compressing radixes bilaterally and branches of cauda equina
    – L5/S1 disc extrusion to the right with annular rupture. Herniated disc compressing radixes bilaterally and branches of cauda equina

    I have been explained that this is a very bad MRI finding, and that I need surgery even though my sypmtoms are mild to moderate. I did develop some additional symptoms in last three months and to recap:

    Cervical symptoms

    – Very mild neck pain on the left side when performing Spurling manoeuvre
    – Occasional mild tingling in fingers
    – My hands do tend to get numb while I sleep but moving the position helps
    – When bending left elbow suddenly I do tend to get mild electrical sensation
    – No motor weakness

    Lumbal symptoms
    – Couple of weeks I got thrown back and could not get out of the bed for a day, but eventually recuperated and now only have very mild buttock pain that seems to be diminishing by the day, albeit slowly
    – There is a patch of skin on my heel that went almost numb to sensation, but seems to get better
    – I perform heel and toe walk without problems

    I have been told by one neurosurgeon that I need an immediate surgery, but have been advised by second and thrid not to do it, since I have no symptoms.

    My question is, how could I end up in a situation like this without knowing about it?
    What could be the cause, since I am athletic, 6 foot tall and 190 lbs and been doing recreational sports almost my entire life?
    How can I prevent further deterioration of my spine?
    What are the chances of my rehabilitation, could I be able to run, hike, ski, drive a bicycle?

    I know this is too much to ask, but I would just like your opinion about the matter.

    Thanks.

    kaparker65
    Participant
    Post count: 14

    1. 2010 C6C7 ACDF 2010 herniated disc and fragmented t found lying across c7. Left arm pain and numbness and severe neck pain. Surgery corrected left arm symptoms but continued to have chronic neck pain periodically. Fusion failed. Doctor refused to surgically correct stating it did not appear to be urgent.

    2. 2013 C6C7 ACDF C6 screw loose impinging nerve left arm for 2nd time. Severe pain in neck and arm. Went to new neurosurgeon. He removed old hardware and placed new hardware. Operative report states that it had not fused no bone at all. He states that he would have done c4c5 but c5c6 was healthy and since I was having no symptoms from the c4c5, he would not touch it for now. After the surgery I could not get any pain relief in my neck and shoulders. I had numbness and tingling and pain now my right arm and the base of my neck. Nothing like the first surgery. I got upper respiratory symptoms and had laryngitis. All I did was cough my head off for 3 months. I had laryngitis. Neurosurgeon sent me to pulmonologist. Nothing helped. At 3 months post op, X-rays revealed that fusion had not taken place and all screws were very loose. My neck felt like it was broken. He stated that he wanted to go in posteriorly and fuse c4c5 and C6C7. I refused. I am a nurse manager and had already been off my job for 3 months. I had to go back to work. I was also afraid that I would not be able to stand any more at that time. I got a referral to a physiatrist and he provided holistic and pain meds. I learned how to live with a chronic 6-8 pain rating. My right arm was still numb especially into my shoulder, back of arm, into my ring and pinky finger. I also went to gym and worked to stabilize my muscles. I continued to have laryngitis and coughing fits. I went to my ENT who diagnosed me with right vocal cord paralysis. It stayed paralyzed until 6 months post op.

    3. In 2015 I worked part time with a cervical spinal surgeon. He agreed to send me monitor my cervical spine with fu MRIs and X-rays yearly until this year. Hardware stayed intact but never fused. It did however stabilize anteriorly calling it a false joint??

    4. In 2015 my right arm continued to give me fits sporadically especially when it rained. I specially my neck near my shoulders. Ibuprofen only thing that works. The spinal surgeon referred me to a Thoracic outlet specialist. He stated that it was probable that I had developed TOS but I wanted to continue to manage without surgery since it was not urgent.

    4. In April 2017, I was getting lots stronger and the pain was better. My physiatrist has started decreasing the number of percocets from 180 a month in 2013 to 90 in 2017. Robaxin was decreased from 150 in 2013 to 90 in 2017. I was only taking them when the barometric pressure changed, it rained, or cold and wet. I live in Alabama so it can be quite humid and lots of wacky weather changes weekly.

    5. In February 2018 I severely twisted my neck to the right and hyperflexed to reach suddenly for something on my desk while holding the phone between my ear and shoulder handsfree. I felt and heard a loud pop at the base of my neck and felt a severe pain into my thoracic area, my right shoulder, arm, and into my hand. The pain also originated at the occipital region of my skull and radiated into my head and my eyes. I had blurred vision and saw dark spots. I do not remember if I passed out or not. All I remember is that I eventually came to my senses.

    6. February 23 to February 28, I stayed in my bed. I had nausea and vomiting, dizziness, severe occipital headache, blurry vision, walking into walls, I fell 3 times, i had severe pain shooting into my right ear and jaw, I had laryngitis for a month, I slurred my words, my nose and mouth were numb off /on and I could not swallow my food.

    7. On July 28, I went to my family practitioner. She diagnosed me with severe anxiety, cervalgia, and arm pain. She place me on leave for 2 weeks until March 14.
    When the symptoms did not appear to be getting any better I called my physiatrist and he ordered MRI for March 13. When the report came back negative, I made appt with my orthospinal surgeon. He was out of town so I made appt with the orthopedic specialist that had seen me for TOS.

    8. On March 14, I was diagnosed with right TOS. He ordered 2 scalene blocks a week apart first available appt was April 2018.

    9. March 19 my physiatrist took me off my job for 8 weeks due to the severe pain and immobility.

    10. A week later I was totally bedbound except to bathroom. I had to pick up my head and stabilize the back of my neck to sit up or turn over, or lay down. I noticed that my right pinky finger was starting to turn red like I had an occlusion. I made appt to see spinal surgeon. He said it was from the TOS and not worry about it.

    11. The first week of April, I started having sciatic pain in my right buttock then my left. Then my thighs and ankles felt heavy and tired and weak bilaterally. I felt like I would hit the floor every time I stood up. I got very SOB, I still had dysphasia, by this time I lost 15lbs, I could not write or type with either hand. My symptoms had spread over to my left side and I had now had the same symptoms in my left side as I did my right. I had problems with urination. My big toes began to get numb, my hands and feet got red then mottled, very cold, and purple.

    12. On April 5, I woke up and had felt like I was dying. I called the spinal surgeon. He examined me and said I did not have TOS. This seems to be coming from your neck and I don’t do necks. He would not give help me with the pain unless he was performing surgery. I was a 10 at this point and in tears. He said I had a pain specialist and I told him that my pain specialist had refused to write Me for pain meds because he says not treating me for this Acute issue. He only wrote for chronic pain. I called my family doctor and she instructed me to go to the ED. The ED doctor examined me and admitted me for all the Neuro symptoms she found, my hypertension, and the abnormal brain MRI.

    13. April 5-9, I was given Robaxin, percocets, Demerol IV to control the pain and severe muscle spasms. I had mutiple tests. The first neurologist on call did not examine me or find anything on my brain MRI. He ordered a MRI brain with constraint to be sure. The neurosurgeon on call came in and move my neck and shoulders a little. He never examined me fully. He said my neck was a mess and that the C6 had not healed. He said he was trying to get a better pic of what was used in my last surgery. He said it looked like plastic. Another neurologist on call examined me and did a lot of test Ms in me. He said that I had stocking glove bilaterally hands and feet. He said I had hyperactive reflexes at the knees and no reflexes at my ankles. He said that I had symptoms of myelopathy and bilateral radiculopathy. He stated that I had positive humans sign on my right hand and not my left. No clonus was found. He said that I was having conflicting symptoms. He said that the c8 dermatones were being affected bilaterally but all of my symptoms did not fit. He felt that I had several things going on at once. He got labwork and all was normal. The MRI brain was felt to be benign, he ordered nerve conduction tests which showed Ulnar Cubital tunnel syndrome bilaterally and I had axinal neuron issues from my elbows to my hands bilaterally. The neurosurgeon told me that he found nothing urgent with my neck, I had bursitis in my shoulders bilaterally, and that he wanted to do a bilateral elbow release immediately. My family practitioner came in and diagnosed me with anxiety and depression and tried to put me on medication. I refused. I told her that I felt that my neck was broken. She said that no doctor was gonna touch my neck and that she was making a referral back to my original surgeon and discharged me without any pain control or muscle relaxers. I was not believed. I followed up with the neurologist a month later. He examined me and found the same issues that the other neurologist found.

    14. On May 3 my family practitioner sent me for ultrasound of carotids for subclavian Steal. She noticed that my hands bilaterally were turning read like they had poor blood flow. Tests were negative. I tried to tell her that when I hyperflexed or hyperextended my neck I got the same TIA like symptoms. I saw my physiatrist later that week and he saw the same thing. I told him the symptoms I was having. He said that I needed MRA of the arteries and an echo because it looked cardiac. He instructed me to call my family doctor and ask her to order the tests. She ordered ultrasound of the carotid which were normal.

    15. On May 30 I finally saw my neurosurgeon. He looked at my MRI and said my symptoms were psychosomatic from severe anxiety and would go away when he did my surgery. At this time I could not walk without assistance and my neck was so unstable and painful that I could not move my head in any direction. He gave me pain meds and muscle relaxer that did not touch the pain. I was instructed to stop taking the ibuprofen.

    16. On June 14 I had ACDF c4-6. He cut the old surgical site anteriorly. He made a second incision at my C6 and placed a drain.

    17. My husband told me that the Neuro surgeon told him I had Acute herniated discs at c4 and c5, I had severe stenosis and osteophytes complex at c4c5, and a dislocated rotation at my C6. He removed the hardware I have not seen my surgeon since the morning of my surgery and my husband did not think to ask what he did to correct C6. He told my husband that I had c2-c4 arthopathy.

    18. I came home on June 15. I was discharged by the assisting neurosurgeon. He never told me I would need 2 neurosurgeons to work on me. All I know is that the pain at the base of my neck is excruciating, the pain radiating down between my shoulder blades like someone is stabbing me with a knife. My right arm and leg is still weak. I still have severe pain and stiffness in my neck into my shoulders with ungodly muscles spasms. I still cannot button my clothes, write, type on computer, I have no ROM in my neck worth speaking about. I am having difficult not looking down all the time. I can feel the hardware in my neck. The good news is that the muscle weakness and tired feeling is gone from my legs. I can pee again. I am not having any symptoms in my left arm at all since I woke up from surgery. I do not have a tremor any longer. My strength has returned.

    19. I went back to my neurologist 2 days ago because I am having burning to top of my right foot. It has happened 3 times since surgery. No redness or a wound to my foot. We had a major cool front move through a week ago. I could feel the barometric pressure changes. It felt like I had inflammation in my neck again but not as severe as before the surgery. I started slurring my words. My balance was off again, dizziness, dysphasia worsened, pain to the c2c3 area of my neck. Brain fog and shorter memory problems still a problem and blurry vision. He ordered a MRI with/without contrast for July 12. He orders a thyroid T3 T4. All normal. My husband told him again that I acted like I had a TIA.

    20. I am raising 3 grandchildren and was working 60-70 hours a week, going to the gym, paling with the kids, no problems at all before I injured myself. I don’t want to file disability retirement. I am not ready to retire. I have 9 more years as anburse Director then I plan to teach nursing. It is why I got my Doctorate in Nursing in 2013. I feel I had two different things going on. I feel that I had a stroke the night I injured myself and I dislocated my C6 vertebrae. I think I am having TIAs when my arthritis is inflamed and presses on my arteries since I already have foraminal stenosis. My MRI and my CT sis not show the extent of my spine issues. All of my symptoms are gone except on the right.

    21. My MRA showed a focal narrowing of the right common artery at the C6C7 that appears to be artifact but if this is real plaque it is showing very short segmen 15% stenosis overall on the axial series otherwise grossly appearing flow. Vertebral arteries appear dominant. There is mild narrowing at the origin of the left vertebral artery otherwise no vertebral artery stenosis seen.

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