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  • amandabu
    Participant
    Post count: 6

    Hi Dr Corenman,

    In 2017, I started having headaches and was diagnosed with occipital neuralgia. I then began having pretty severe muscle spasms in my neck and shoulder. I was treated with muscle relaxers without relief. I was sent to pain management for occipital nerve blocks and trigger point injections. I started having trouble raising my arms and noticed pain in my axillary area and on top of my shoulder on the right side. An X-ray showed DDD. I was unable to have an MRI as I have a Medical device for my bladder. I was sent to physical therapy. PT and dry needling did not help and I progressed to numbness and tingling into my fingers. I had an epidural injection that did not help. I also had an RFA that seemed to have made things worse.I noticed at work that I was having trouble with fine dexterity of my hands. I began dropping ink pens. I was finally sent to a neurosurgeon for an opinion at my pcp advice. I was found to have cervical kyphosis at C5 that appeared to cause cervical cord compression according to a flexion/extension x-ray. A CT myelogram was ordered but I was scheduled for surgery as well. CT myelogram showed cord compression at C5. I had an ACDF surgery on C4-C6 in Sept of 2018 (just 2 weeks after my appointment with the surgeon).
    Right after surgery, I was in a lot of pain and I had a right foot drop. My legs were weak and I had to use a walker. The surgeon could not find a cause for this and actually told me to get rid of the walker and start walking. I was readmitted 3 weeks post op for pain control as well. Since then, I have undergone physical therapy totaling about 8 months, epidural injections, pain management, and about 4 opinions. Because I could not get an mri, I had been diagnosed with anything from functional neurological disorder to now progressive cervical myelopathy with pseudoarthrosis. The most recent diagnosis came from the Cleveland clinic. I am 42 years old and in decent health. I am extremely weak if I walk for anything over 15-20 min. I still have weak arms and sharp pain in my shoulder and down my arm. I have trouble picking up small objects. I walk with a cane. I lose my balance at times.
    CT myelogram showed pseudoarthrosis, congenital cervical spinal stenosis, and cord compression at C5-C7. 8/31/19
    In office X-ray showed a cervical kyphosis on the level below the ACDF. 8/2019.
    I underwent a surgery to exchange my medical device to an mri compatible one.
    The mri of my neck showed cord compression and foraminal compression at C6-C7. 8/28/20
    1. My question is what would you suggest would be the best way to treat my cervical spine? The Cleveland clinic has offered to do a posterior cervical fusion. Another surgeon locally, has offered to do an ACDF on the level below as well as a posterior fusion on C4-C7.
    2. Also, I realize that after surgery I will still have symptoms, but what is the likelihood that if I work with PT, I will be able gain strength and mobility back to have a normal life?
    3. What is the likelihood that this will keep happening to levels below where I’ve had surgery?

    Thank you for your patience, it’s been a long road!

    Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660

    You have textbook symptoms of myelopathy, which is spinal cord dysfunction mainly due to cord compression in the cervical spine. You don’t describe your images well and it might be helpful to copy and paste your radiologist’s report here. See: https://neckandback.com/conditions/cervical-central-stenosis-and-myelopathy/

    It sounds like you have a surgery scheduled but you don’t describe your proposed surgery unless the title of your inquiry explains it (“C5-7 ACDF”). If you have progressive symptoms (they are getting worse), then your surgery should be moved up sooner than later. You are not being a wimp, you need to have this addressed soon.

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
    Kandy
    Participant
    Post count: 7

    Hello Dr. Corenman,

    Thank you for your website, educational resources, and answering individual questions. I read your noted articles back in December and have re-read them multiple times. My journey still continues. Recap is that I had ACDF C4 to C7 in Sept 2018. I was pain free for about 7 months, and the left radiculopathy/weakness returned at 11 months post-op. I had CT myelogram at 1 year post op that suggested I was spot-welded at C6-7 with “possible small area of partial fusion anteriorly and towards the right, but without solid fusion elsewhere across disc space.” It also said “At C6-7, there is mild spinal canal stenosis and mild bilateral foraminal bony encroachment.” My tricep weakness and pain seem to correlate to a C7 nerve root issue. You suggested I get an SNRB at the left C7 nerve root. I am still working on trying to get that.

    I did get EMG back in October that showed “mild chronic and inactive left C7 radiculopathy” along with “mild left ulnar neuropathy at the elbow”. I was told do nerve gliding exercises and wear a brace for 4 to 6 weeks. When that did not work, I tried steroid diagnostic/therapeutic injections first at the elbow (which did not help) and then at the wrist (which helped). I ended up having left ulnar nerve surgery some 3 weeks ago (decompression at cubital tunnel and Guyon canal) as well as carpal tunnel release. It has helped with the finger numbness, but I do not know effect on strength yet. Even though EMG showed the issue to be mild, hand surgeon said the elbow compression was severe and far from what he expected to see. There was quite a bit of tissue inflammation, nerve inflammation, and it was so attached to scar tissue that he had to go further up the arm than normal, along with encountering a pocket of blood. He asked if I had been in an accident to explain the condition, which I have not. I am hopeful that I will see a big change with this surgery. But, this does nothing for the pain and weakness above my elbow.

    Unfortunately 6 weeks ago, I fell onto the top of my head. The force axially loaded my spine, though it might have loaded a little more in flexion than a straight axial load. The pain down my spine was like a lightening bolt, down to the base and back. Then, there was intense heat/burning at my ear lobes with a tremendous occipital migraine. The ER did a cervical CT which included a short radiological report that said “Hardware intact and no significant osseous abnormalities noted”. There was no level by level assessment. Spine surgeon looked at the CT images and said that I am now fused at C6/7 and that discs above and below were fine. He said my fall was insignificant and pain was likely muscular. He suggested trying a chiropractor and trying PT again, even though I did PT for my radiculopathy from Sept to Dec without meeting any of my PT goals (no decrease in pain or improvement in strength).

    From the fall, I now have new pain, from near daily mild occipital headaches, constant burning in my neck, constant hatchet in my back, constant ice pick in my low back, transient left and right flank pain, and transient left sciatica. I also have left foot drop, left leg weakness, and restricted ROM on left side along with my previous complaints of upper left extremity and now some upper right extremity pain.

    Chiropractor ordered a cervical MRI, then later a thoracic and lumbar MRIs because cervical MRI showed possible marrow edema at T3 that needed to be further investigated. I have been previously identified as having a congenitally narrow cervical spinal canal (previous CT myelogram in September said “thecal sac measures at most 8 to 9 mm at C2 and C3, at most 1 cm at C4 and C5, and at most 9 mm at C6 and C7”). With that in mind, highlights of the recent cervical MRI are:

    C2-3: Posterior element hypertrophy with left foraminal encroachment; annular bulge measuring 2 mm, posterior spinal cord abutment and slight indentation complicated by flaval ligament thickening. Clinical correlation for left C3 radicular involvement and myelopathy recommended.

    C3-4: Disc height narrowing and dorsal bulging measuring approximately 2mm posteriorly. There is mild right and moderate-marked left posterior element hypertrophy. Retrolisthesis of C3 measuring 1-2mm noted. Encroachment of both the ventral and dorsal margins of the spinal cord with slight indentation posteriorly complicated by flaval ligament thickening. Clinical correlation for associated radicular involvement and myelopathy recommended.

    C4-C7: Evidence of prior anterior cervical discectomy and fusion. Posterior elements are normal. No specific findings of central or neural foraminal stenosis or spinal cord or exiting nerve root compression.

    C7-T1: Disc narrowing and derangement with posterocentral 2-3mm focal herniation encroaching but not overtly compressing the ventral spinal cord margin. There is right-sided facet joint hypertrophy and encroachment of the corresponding neural foramen nerve root. Clinical correlation for right C8 radicular involvement recommended.

    I also had a flex/ex xray this week that showed: “There has been interval osseous bridging of the C4-C6 vertebral bodies. Interval narrowing but persistent of the intervertebral space at C6-C7.” Does this mean that compared to the previous xray in November, there is a gap at C6-7 that has narrowed since November, but the gap still exists? What does that say about fusion at that level?

    I hired a neuroradiologist to re-read the CT from the ER, since the ER report did not specifically look at each level. I gave this radiologist a copy of the report and images from the CT myelogram in Sept (that showed pseudoarthrosis) for comparison. Regarding the recent CT, he said “The disc space at C6-7 is unchanged in the interval, again with lucency in this region. The C6-7 level demonstrates artifact from prior CDF. There is very minimal ossesous spurring along the posterior margin of the disc space. Minimal encroachment of the ventral canal is evident. The foramina are remarkable for mild to moderate encroachment bilaterally, with uncovertebral spurring evident.” In the Impressions, he said “There is again lucency involving the disc space at C6-7 suggesting non-fusion. Again this is not significantly changed in the interval. Uncovertebral spurring at C6-7 bilaterally. This results in mild to moderate foraminal encroachment and can encroach exiting neural structures. The C7 nerve roots exit at this level.”

    Also noteworthy, is that a flex/ex xray in August 2019 showed the spinous process difference of 1 mm each at C3-4 and C4-5, but 4 mm at C6-7. This stayed exactly the same for the flex/ex xray in November 2019 and in the most recent one of March 2020. My vitamin D levels have been fine but I was diagnosed with osteopenia this week.

    As for the fall, I have some lumbar damage (but the discussion and questions do not belong in this thread) and compression fractures at T3 and T12 along with a herniated disc (also was told it was discogenic disc) at T11/12.

    I have three questions:
    1. Spine surgeon and neuroradiologist looked at same CT and came to different conclusions. Does one specialist generally have a better assessment of this than another? Spine surgeons work with spines on a daily basis and perhaps might have more practical experience in this instance. Is it more likely I am fused (based on assessment of surgeon) or not fused (based upon the neuroradiologist’s assessment, the 4 mm movement of the spinous processes on the flex/ex xray, and the “persistent intervertebral space at C6-C7” noted on the xray report)?
    2. I had a steroid injection in my elbow and one in my wrist within the last 3 months. I have been advised to get steroid injections in neck (at C2/3, C3/4, and C7/T1), thoracic (T11/12), and multiple levels in lumbar, but that was before the diagnosis of osteopenia. Is this advisable with osteopenia (I am only 52)?
    3. This is perhaps dependent on your answers in 1 and 2 above. If C6/7 is not fully fused but has made some progress in fusion, would steroid injections hinder more osseous bridging?

    I am waiting for a 2nd opinion within my HMO, but the next available appointment is more than 3 months out. However, I will see a physiatrist soon to talk about SNRB or ESI’s. I am inclined to get the SNRB on left C7 so that I have more information as to whether or not this is the culprit of my ongoing left radiculopathy and weakness. But then, I still need to address the pain and damage from my fall, as it is not getting better.

    Many thanks!

    Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660

    Your symptoms sound like myeloradiculopathy, compression and dysfunction of nerve roots and the spinal cord itself. See https://neckandback.com/conditions/cervical-central-stenosis-and-myelopathy/ and https://neckandback.com/conditions/radiculopathy-pinched-nerve-in-neck/.

    You do have significant cord compression (“disc osteophyte complexes most significant at C4/C5 to include extruded disc material resulting in significant spinal canal stenosis and neural foraminal narrowing”).

    You probably need an ACDF at (at least) C4-5.

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660
    #31438 In reply to: MRI/Surgery? |

    Your findings are significant. The upper cervical spine has left degenerative facet disease (C2-4) which can cause left sided headaches. (“C2-3; moderate left hypertrophic facet arthropathy…C3-4 moderate left hypertrophic facet arthropathy”).

    Your C4-6 levels are worrisome for spinal cord damage due to canal compression (“C4-5; Central disc protrusion and endplate osteophyte with severe central canal stenosis and cord compression (left greater than right), T2 hypersenintensity within the lateral aspects of the cord suggests myelomaiacia”. and
    “C5-6; moderate central canal stenosis and mild ventral cord flattening, severe right and severe right neural foraminal stenosis, and mild effacement of the right and compression of the left C& nerve roots”) which can explain the left hand tingling.

    If you have cord compression with signal change in the cord (scar), in my opinion, you need ADCF surgery and sooner than later. See https://neckandback.com/conditions/cervical-central-stenosis-and-myelopathy/ and https://neckandback.com/conditions/radiculopathy-pinched-nerve-in-neck/.

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660

    Let’s break this down into its components. You had an ACDF at C4-5. I would assume this was for radiculopathy (nerve compression) and not for central stenosis causing spinal cord compression (myelopathy). The C5 nerve is affected by a C4-5 level of nerve compression.

    This nerve does not go down the arm below the elbow and symptoms really don’t radiate below the upper arm. Your complaint “Muscle spams in my arms (deltoids and triceps) – Before the surgery, I didn’t have soreness or muscle spasms in my deltoids and triceps (or any other parts of my arms), but since the procedure, they’ve been relatively consistent, on-again and off-again” do not fit with that C4-5 level. If you have nerve compression at C5-6 or C6-7 below the level of your prior surgery, that would fit.

    Your complaint “Lately I’ve experienced muscle spams in my legs…my quads have been spasming again for about the past week” would not stem from the cervical spine unless you had significant spinal cord compression in your neck (myelopathy) which I will assume you don’t have. Leg symptoms can commonly be generated by the lower back or even metabolic problems (imbalance in blood electrolytes, etc..) or hormonal issues.

    Finally, “Foot numbness – I occasionally feel numbness on a certain spot of one foot; it’s generally on the top of the foot”. This can be causes by various issues such as a foot nerve problem (Morton’s neuroma, Tarsal Tunnel Syndrome). peroneal neuropathy or even lumbar herniated disc.

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
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