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  • seank
    Participant
    Post count: 10

    Dr. Corenman,

    I hope that this catches your attention and hopefully you can comment on it. Will be a bit long to describe the entire situation though.

    In 2005, at 35 years of age, I herniated L5-S1 weightlifting. Eventually had laminectomy in Houston which worked very well. No troubles since, ran half marathons etc.

    In 2012, at 42 years of age, I herniated L4-L5, not really sure what caused it. Large herniation (about 1.2 cm), had microdiscectomy done by a neurosurgeon in PA. Healed but never worked as well as the L5-S1 disc surgery. Off and on low back pain which would go away with staying active and running. In fact, the surgeon told my wife post surgery in the recovery room that “he did the best he could and that there was a lot to clean up”.

    In May of this year, the low back pain became much worse. An MRI in July showed another large herniation on L4-L5, 1.1 cm this time. The two large herniations on same disc have reduced the disc height to about 4-5 mm at the narrowest point. My symptoms are 90% low back pain, some sciatica which can go both to calf muscle and the big toe on right leg (so probably both L4-L5 and L5-S1 dermatome are involved).

    I went and saw the neurosurgeon who did my 2005 laminectomy in Houston to see what he recommends. This gentleman is one of the best in my area, has tons of experience, has good surgical history with me and is an honest, straight shooter.

    His answer, the L4-L5 reherniation means that another surgery is inevitable given the severe spinal stenosis. The size of herniation, low height of the disc, facet hypertrophy being seen on MRI, previous history of poor microdiscectomy on that disc means he would not even consider another microdiscectomy on that disc. He thinks that there is high risk of nerve damage trying to clear up everything, and it would merely delay the inevitable fusion given all other issues in that area.

    His recommendation: L4-L5 fusion. Given the disc below has also been operated on, he recommended also fusing L5-S1. All disks above L4-L5 look nice and healthy.

    I do have another neurosurgeon who thinks he can do another microdiscectomy. I do not know this guy, though he is highly rated. I look at the imagery and wonder if that merely delays the inevitable. Maybe I should use my age (47, still on youngish side), little loss of muscle strength etc to heal better after fusion as opposed to trying everything till things get worse. I have tried physio but have had little in preventing surgery in the past. Given the large herniations I am prone to, not sure physio can help with those.

    There is also the question of trusting your surgeon. If I will ever get a fusion, my 2005 surgeon would be the guy to do it. He has been consistent in his opinion. When my insurance balked at the fusion on L5-S1, he went to bat for me and won the appeal. I am scheduled for surgery next week. Given my doubts, he also worked to arrange a second opinion with another highly rated neurosurgeon – who is not part of his practice – in my area. I am seeing this gentleman early next week for one last opinion.

    What would you recommend? Is it time to get the two level fusion and join the Borg collective? Would you consider another microdiscectomy? I know you generally recommend doing it twice before fusion, but I see the rather thin disc, massive herniations, the facet joint issues etc and wonder if that is the right answer here.

    Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660

    Really, the need for fusion depends upon your symptoms. If you have axial lower back pain (central pain) that is worse with flexion (bending forward) and loading your spine (lifting), then you most likely have discal pain and probably would need to consider a fusion. However, if your pain is more standing/walking pain or more one-sided pain, this probably indicates a nerve compression syndrome and a simple microdiscectomy should be considered.

    There are many patients with narrowed discs and degenerative facets (me) that do fine without a fusion. However, I don’t have significant lower back pain. The quality and reproduction of pain makes a big difference regarding what to do.

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
    seank
    Participant
    Post count: 10

    My pain is mostly axial in nature, seems to be getting better and gets better with leaning forward. There is little sciatica. I am fairly active (walking about 3 miles or more a day) and off meds due to impending surgery (have not even taken a tylenol in 48 hours). Pain in back never exceeds a 3-4, sciatica at worst is 1-2. My symptoms are clearly getting better.

    Seems crazy to even be considering fusion, but that MRI looks bad. I am being told that this could get ugly pretty quick with little warning. Just trying to figure out if the risk of fusion is greater than risk of living with this time bomb in my back. Am I at risk for paralysis?

    Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660

    You are having lower back pain that is stenotic in nature. This means that standing (which requires bending backwards to stand erect) naturally narrows the spinal canal. With a large disc hernation filling the canal, the squeezes the nerves and causes neurogenic claudication (axial lower back pain that radiates into the buttocks with standing and sometimes walking).

    Normal discal pain is pain that is increased with bending and lifting. If your pain is not bending pain but more standing pain, I would recommend a redo microdiscectomy and not a fusion. I’m not saying that you might not need a fusion in the future but I have many patients who were in your circumstances and did well with a microdiscectomy and did not need a fusion.

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
    seank
    Participant
    Post count: 10

    What do you make of my neurosurgeon saying that a second microdiscectomy is too risky based on the size of herniation and how dark and calcified the disk looks? He is worried about nerve damage.

    Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660

    Any surgeon who performs spine surgery should be very capable of going into a spinal canal that has prior surgery and decompressing the nerve root once again. Yes, it is more difficult, meticulous and time-consuming but that is what is expected from a good spine surgeon or neurosurgeon. The surgeon should just be careful and know his or her limitations. If the nerve is too scarred (which is very rare), decompress around it and leave the scar on the root itself. “Don’t try to make chicken soup out of chicken poop” is a fond phrase of mine.

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
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