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  • SpinelessWench
    Member
    Post count: 38

    Dr. Corenman,

    Your review and reply this morning is really appreciated; it’s unfortunate that patients like myself, whose pain and other symptoms are obviously originating from somewhere, are forced to investigate and research their conditions themselves. In a matter of six weeks, I’ve had two surgeons all but shrug off my symptoms, sending me out the door with vague or otherwise nebulous “diagnoses” simply because they lack the initiative to investigate just a little bit deeper in order to find the etiology of the pain. Because I’ve undergone 9 spine surgeries, and have an extensive amount of post-operative scarring and arthritis, I’m now presumed to be beyond the short amount of time it would take a curious or inquisitive surgeon to investigate additional possibilities for my symptoms. I fully understand that there comes a time when operative or invasive procedures would be futile or otherwise detrimental to the patient… I’m a realist, and completely comprehend the notion that surgery isn’t always a “cure all” for patients with complicated and extensive spinal histories. But, my symptoms are very specific, and both my pain management team (two excellent anesthesiologists) and my long-time neurosurgeon are in agreement that my symptoms are “classic presentations” of stenosis and/or instability at very localized levels in my lumbo-sacral spine.

    Exactly as you suggested, my MRI yielded “nothing” in the opinion of “2nd opinion guy”, and severe stenosis in the opinions of two radiologists and my PM team. Since there is titanium artifact from L3 to S1, an absolute determination has yet to be established. It seems likely, however, that L2/3 is the suspect — my symptoms are a textbook presentation of compression at that level, and the sagittal views clearly show disk bulging there. The radiologist noted “diffuse disk bulge”, with “moderate to severe foraminal stenosis bilaterally.” And again, 2nd opinion guy all but insinuated that the radiologist was hallucinating and possibly possessed by little green men… It’s all maddening, but at the same time, comical.

    As the patient, the one who’s living with acute pain and diminished quality of life, I think a logical gameplan is needed BEFORE I have the Medtronics neurostimulator implanted. On Monday, I plan to talk with my PM physician to request a few more plain X-rays of my lumbar spine that include views of the sacral and SI structures. As you recommended, I plan to request flexion and extension views. If pseudoarthrosis or spondylolithesis are present, those views would clearly identify them. I’m not sure if this is relevant, but one of the reasons my fusion extended to S-1 years ago was due to spondylolithesis at L5/S1. The orthopedic surgeon who performed that surgery (2008) tactfully warned me that I’d likely have problems at L2/3 in the future, given the increased load that level would have to endure.

    Before I have a $30,000 device implanted, I think I’m being prudent in covering all the bases to determine what, exactly, is causing this. My PM physician would likely agree that perhaps a CT scan with contrast might help illuminate compression obscured by artifact in my MRI. Or, would a myelography be helpful in this situation? Finally, if L2/3 is found to be the origin of my symptoms, would a fusion extension to T11 or so be warranted, or could that level be repaired without fusing upward? Aside from flexion and extension plain films, can you lend an opinion as to whether any of the diagnostic procedures I’ve mentioned would help narrow this problem down?

    I’m sure that during your career, you’ve encountered patients just like me — extensive spine issues, and a long history of surgeries — who just want an answer or somewhat definitive diagnosis. Whether surgery could help is almost secondary… In other words, just knowing WHAT it is, whether it can be fixed or not, makes it a little easier to live with and tolerate.

    I look forward to hearing from you when you have time… Thanks again.

    S.W., NC

    Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660

    There is a debate regarding the sacroiliac joint as a pain generator in spine surgery circles. I do believe this joint can cause pain but not to the extent that many others do. You do have a situation that the sacroiliac joint has more stress than normal (three level fusion to the sacrum) but your symptoms do not reflect sacroiliac pain.

    Sacroiliac joint pain is local pain right over the joint itself that can radiate to the buttocks and rarely the posterior thigh. This is not your pain. The sacroiliac joint is incapable of generating “stenotic” type pain as there are no movable foramen or nerve exit holes that can change in diameter with motion.

    “Butt crack” is a term we spine surgeons should use as it is perfectly descriptive but unfortunately we have to use “gluteal cleft” instead.

    Pain that originates in the sacral region, radiates into the anterior thighs and down to the lateral mid-calf is in the referral area of the L2 through the L4 nerves. If you have a fusion from the sacrum to L3, there are two possibilities for pain referral. One is a pseudoarthrosis at L3-4 that is causing nerve compression. The other possibility is a breakdown of L2-3 with nerve compression from this level.

    Your symptoms are classic for mechanical compression due to spine position which is very common. The MRI may not demonstrate significant compression but the standing flexion/extension x-rays may reveal this instability. Selective nerve root blocks should yield temporary relief (see SNRB and pain diary on the website for further information).

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660

    Congratulations on your weight loss. That will be helpful in your overall recovery from this disorder.

    Being 24 years of age and carrying a diagnosis of lumbar canal stenosis means you have congenital stenosis (your canal is small to begin with). The condition called neurogenic claudication can occur with canal narrowing. The symptoms are characterized by low-lower back pain (back of the pelvis pain) caused by prolonged standing and walking. Symptoms can radiate into the thighs the longer you stand or walk.

    If your pain is lower back pain brought on by lifting and bending and feels better when you stand and walk, you probably do not have symptoms of neurogenic claudication but have symptoms of degenerative disc disease.

    Each condition is treated differently. You want to encourage flexion activities with neurogenic claudication (cycling, skiing, modifying swimming with a snorkel) and encourage extension exercises with degenerative disc disease (swimming, gym workouts, swiss ball extension activity). Epidural injections can help in either case.

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660

    Disc herniations in the thoracic spine are difficult to treat if epidurals are ineffective. The pain can originate from four potential generators: the nerve root compression, the degenerative disc itself, compression of the spinal cord or from a condition called Scheuermann’s.

    Nerve compression should cause pain that radiates around the chest wall associated with numbness of that dermatome (the sensory area the nerve serves). This condition is unlikely to be the painful disorder as it is very uncommon.

    The most common pain generator is disc degeneration itself. Discs act as shock absorbers. When discs become degenerative, they tear which can cause pain as the disc wall is full of pain nerves in some patients. Patients with this disorder have more pain with loading and vibration (unfortunately, airplane vibration compounds this problem).

    Scheuermann’s disorder is associated with degenerative disc disease. In this disorder, which initially occurs when the patient is young, the endplates of the vertebra deform but the pain might not develop until later in life. This disorder which is more common than you think is recognized by the irregular endplates and wedging of the vertebral bodies.

    Finally, herniations that cause cord compression are not typically severely painful (but can be). Symptoms are mainly pins and needles in the legs along with imbalance (legs do not function well).

    The good news is that as long as there is no cord compression, this condition is not dangerous. Chiropractic manipulation can be helpful to manage the symptoms. Since, typically the symptoms occur with prolonged sitting or standing, extension strengthening can be helpful. Lying face-up over an exercise ball to stretch the spine and then lying face-down and doing back extensions (reverse sit-ups) can be helpful.

    There are portable seat pads made of sorbothane, a viscoelastic polymer that might be helpful to reduce the vibration imparted by your occupation.

    Medications such as membrane stabilizers (Lyrica and Neurontin) can occasionally help with symptoms as long as side effects are minimal. These meds work in about 30% of patients effectively without significant side effects.

    Facet blocks can relieve pain. If these blocks temporarily eliminate pain (see facet blocks and keeping a pain diary on the website), you might be a candidate for rhizotomies. Rhizotomies are a more permanent procedure to relieve pain.

    If nothing else works, surgery could be considered but that would be if everything fails and the pain is absolutely debilitating. I won’t go into details but surgery is the last resort if nothing else works and a work-up indicates you are a candidate.

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660

    There are two different questions that you raise. One is what construct works the best for a fusion and the other is what is the best way to preserve the disc above.

    I’ll address the last one first. Unfortunately, genetics plays a very large role in the future of the disc above. It is my opinion that you personally have more brittle collagen making up the annulus of the disc (see degenerative disc disease under cervical spine on website) which is more likely to tear.

    That being said, activities that produce potential impact and large, quick rotational and flexion/extension motions puts the disc at more risk of tearing. These would be skiing, tennis, contact sports, water skiing, horseback riding (falls) among others. Keeping the neck muscles strong should help to ameliorate these injuries.

    The second question is the type of construct you should consider to for a fusion surgery. This however begs the question of an artificial disc or even a posterior foraminotomy. If this disc space of the herniated disc level is in reasonable shape (the disc is less than 50% of normal height loss, the endplates are still intact, the facets are not degenerative and neck pain itself is a minor issue), then an artificial disc can be considered. There are risks and benefits of an artificial disc in the neck that can be reviewed on the website under “Treatments”/”Surgical”/Artificial disc replacement cervical”.

    If the herniation is the only problem (no neck pain, facets are intact (no degenerative spondylolisthesis- see website) and the herniation is not positioned under the cord (surgical manipulation of the hernation could put the cord in jeopardy), then a posterior foraminotomy could be considered. Look for the video of this procedure on my website.

    Finally, if an ACDF is considered, there are three potential surgical grafts that can be considered along with the plate; autograft (your own bone from the hip), allograft (cadaver bone) and allograft ground up bone along with a cage (made of plastic called PEEK).

    See the website section under “Pre and Post-op”/”Preparation for spine surgery”/”Fusion bone graft choices” to gain a better understanding of your graft choices. I can tell you that these PEEK cages are used frequently in the neck but I am not a fan of them for the cervical spine. I do use PEEK cages extensively for the lumbar spine, but that is because there is so much more surface area to work with in the lumbar spine.

    In the cervical spine, there is very little surface area for fusion so the idea is to use a graft that is 100% biologically active. The PEEK cage, being made of plastic, reduces the active surface area by 30-50% which means greater time to fusion and a higher percentage of non-fusion (pseudoarthrosis).

    This leaves autograft (your own bone) and allograft (an iliac crest graft that originates from a donor) as choices. The section I referred to earlier is a good discussion of those choices.

    In my opinion, the plate is a necessity as it secures the graft, increases the fusion rate and allows the patient to discontinue the neck brace early (or not use it at all).

    Hope that covers your choices for you.

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC
    Moderator
    Post count: 8660

    Review of the MRI can reveal a solid fusion but the MRI is generally unreliable to ascertain if a solid fusion is present.

    He notes mild to moderate degenerative changes at C4-5. This can be a pain generator for neck pain. He reports you have no radicular symptoms. This means you have no arm pain or examination findings of weakness, sensory loss or reflex changes.

    Standard X-rays including flexion and extension in your case would be important to determine the presence of degeneration, stability and angulation of the C4-5 level as well as helping to reinforce the understanding of solid fusion at the C5-6 level.

    Dr. Corenman

    PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
     
    Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
Viewing 6 results - 1,921 through 1,926 (of 2,200 total)