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#34278Topic: Direct Pars Repair in forum BACK PAIN |
Hello,
Would a neutral vertebrae slippage of 3.5mm, flexion 6.2mm, and extension or 5.2mm make a direct pars repair impossible? I am 24 and have no nerve impact yet but some minimal spinal stenosis. Would it even be recommended if my pain is manageable? I just worry about eventual spinal fusion as a surgeon voiced I would eventually need one due to slippage already occurring.
Thank you for taking a look at this Dr. I had a successful 6mm herniation removal with an l4/l5 mirodiscectomy on 2/25/2020. All was good and I was making progress. At that time the MRI showed I also had 2mm bulges at l3/l4 and l5/s1.
A little over a year later. March or 2021 I started to have flare ups and pain again. First it was right side with pain in buttocks and down leg. Similiar to what I have felt in past. It comes and goes with no rhyme or reason it seams. I also have down left side as well but not consistently. This in in buttocks, but also down front of hip, thigh and to the knee. Also in groin slightly. I was given a second MRI for comparison with and without contrast. As well as xrays and this is what it said below. I am just comletely disheartened as to what to do. I assume I am going to just need to get used to life with pain. I see the Neurosurgeon in a 10 days to discuss the below findings. I have not been able to push myself with home PT and stengthening as I am/was afraid of making it worse. But it might be I got that all wrong. I am a healthy 5’7′ and 160 pound and up until this was very active in gym etc. Is there any hope for me here and what would you recommend as course of action? Epidural Injections?I should add my pain levels are 3 on average with occational 5 at its worst right now. On days its a 1 or 2 I feel the weight of the world lifted off me. I have not taken a dose pak yet and have never been on any neurontins. I manage it fairly well with Ibuprofen and Tylenol, ice and rest if needed.
XRAY: Vertebral body heights are normal. There is intervertebral
disc space narrowing at L4-5. There is a minimal degree of perceived
retrolisthesis of L4 on L5 which remains fixed between flexion and
extension. No other significant spondylolisthesis is seen. Minimal
degree of anterior osteophyte formation seen at L3-4.MRI FINDINGS:
Subtle dextroscoliosis of the lumbar spine is noted on the coronal
images. Slight straightening of normal lumbar lordosis is noted
suggestive of muscle spasm. Slight decreased disc height and hydration
is noted at the L3-4 and L4-5 levels. There is no focal marrow
replacement or marrow edema of the lumbar vertebrae. The conus
medullaris appears within normal limits terminating at the L1 level.
The presence of 5 lumbar vertebrae is presumed.T12-L1: There is no central canal or foraminal stenosis. No
significant posterior disc protrusion is evident.L1-2: There is no central canal or foraminal stenosis. No significant
posterior disc protrusion is evident.L2-3: There is no central canal or foraminal stenosis. No significant
posterior disc protrusion is evident.L3-4: There is a diffuse disc bulge of the annulus fibrosus measuring
approximately 2 mm AP dimension which encroaches upon the anterior
surface of the thecal sac. Central annular tear is again noted.
Together with facet joint degenerate changes, ligamentum flavum
hypertrophy and posterior epidural lipomatosis a minimal degree of
central canal stenosis is noted. No significant foraminal stenosis is
evident. Essentially stable appearance is noted at this level when
compared to prior study.L4-5: Since previous examination there has been right hemilaminotomy
with discectomy. Previously noted right paracentral disc herniation of
the protrusion type is no longer evident. There is no central canal
stenosis. No significant enhancing soft tissue/epidural fibrosis/scar
is evident. A mild degree of right foraminal stenosis is noted due to
right posterior lateral bulging and facet joint degenerative changes
with encroachment upon the exiting right L4 nerve root. Progression in
this area is noted when compared to prior study. This is best
visualized on sagittal T2 weighted image 12.L5-S1: There is a diffuse disc bulge of the annulus fibrosus measuring
less than 2 mm in AP dimension which encroaches upon the anterior
surface of the thecal sac. No significant foraminal stenosis is
evident. Minimal facet joint degenerate changes are evident. There is
essentially stable appearance at this level when compared to prior
study.CONCLUSION:
1. Slight straightening of normal lumbar lordosis is noted consistent
with muscle spasm. Subtle dextroscoliosis of the lumbar spine is
noted.2. There is essentially stable appearance of intervertebral disc
pathology at the L3-4 and L5-S1 levels as detailed above.3. Since previous examination postsurgical changes are noted at the
L4-5 level as detailed above. No recurrent central disc protrusion is
evident. Right foraminal stenosis is noted at this level as detailed
above which appears to represent progression since previous
examination.#34222 In reply to: degenerative disc disease ( uper neck) |dr coernman
its the second time i contact with u . the neck pain start by trauma (after hit head on wall ) in 20 year old
after trauma head was pain day after day (more 20 days hard pain after its less pain (in this stage i was doing xr 3 time after injury and ct scan ) the dr not find nothing in the image (emg not test in this stage )
after this then pain less and i forget from injury (less pain but very often i feel pain in my uper neck (behind neck)
some years after (4 i feel the pain more in my neck and in 2016 dr send me to mri c .
todays my symptoms include :neck pain chronic (every days and hours in days ) the pain feel in my uper neck : aching stabbing burning sometimes electrical
in activity the quality pain change (with some action and good movement the pain less (but not very much and pain return very faster
the skin not pain more in touch
percentage of #pain# (neck 90% shoulder 10% or 85-15 ).
in my both arm not pain feel but feel some numbness (emg test i do in 2016 and 2021 conclusion (2016- ncs waves latencies of rt and lt median and rt ulnar nerves were prolonged
needle emg in selected muscles show signs of chronic denervation in muscles innervated bt C3-4 5-6 6-7 7-8 (THE 2-3 NOT CHECK )
INTENSITY OF PAIN
IIN MY NECK (THE PAIN GOES FROM 3-4 TO 7, 8, 9, (IN LAST THO MOUNT ITS LIKE 7 8 OFTEN
SHOLDER 2 TO 4
HAND NO PAIN
I HAVE WEAKNES BUT NOT SEVERE (I USE MY BOTH HAND BUT SOMTIMES DROPE OBJECTS(ITS HAPPEN seldom
onset and length of time symptoms have been present and how did pain start when i 20 years old i have trau,a in the pool
when i swimming backstroke in the pool i hit my head on a wall
and after this the pain start (its happen in 2010)(trauma (after hit head on wall ) in 20 year old
after trauma head was pain day after day (more 20 days hard pain after its less pain (in this stage i was doing xr 3 time after injury and ct scan ) the dr not find nothing in the image (emg not test in this stage )
activities reduce pain :(strech, shoulder rotations , activity in water (freestyle with mask )
i can sit 15 minute (but hour its make more pain and i come and stand and strech some minute
yes if i sit too much the pain more but also with stand its pain but less
the neck hurt in sitting
with walk is better ,with other activity
(i m not jump a lot times ,not bike on
computer work (from more 30 minute sit its pain (not looking down often )
with backwards pain more neck
my daily function not easy with my pain (i m very be a ware to my posture and not looking down and i m be a ware from some actions .
then pain change my life (and i m very a ware from things that before i do like (running and some things that like lookin down i m very a ware ,not lifting (before i can lift easy like 80-100 lbs and now its hard 20 lbs
i m not work physically
Liability the lifeguard of the pool (in 2010 ) come to me and offer me to learn me the the technique of swimming (freestyle, backstroke mainly )
he tell me after he learn me i can swimming more fast and easy (he told me I have good data for swimming (i was 6’4′ high was 200 lbs in the injury )
in freestyle the swimmer can see the T IN THE end of the pool (but in backstroke u can see when wall come (and in one side of the pool(on shallow water ) there are flags that symbolize deep and shallow water but not have flags in other side (deep the pool is 25 m long and from 1 m deep to 2 m ) and the man who learn me ( swimming teacher ) not tell me how to be a ware from this danger (not give me other advise like calculate the the steps or looking to side (from example in freestyle he tell me after i see the T one steps and do kipper)
and this accident happen 3 week after i learn the technique. **(In fact to this day there is no flag in this pool and I swim in it)
Previous Consultations or Treatment
i work some stretces and strange
Flexion Stretch , Levator Scapula Stretch ,Corner Stretch
Prone Cobra Stretch ,chin tuck ,back burn
i try Acupuncture and goes start Osteopathic care not very help
i seen 3 chiro (not start treatment in one of them (the last one tell me he didnt can help me (and send me to spine surgeon
i see spine surgeon in 2016 2018 2019 2020(in last 3 its the same surgeon and he tell Conservative treatment (he my mr 2016 and check
Walks on his own on a narrow base without lameness, normal heel to toe walking
Romburg test negative.
Normal returns c5- t1
Hoffman and Berchiordials are opposite negative
He wrote about mri mild dehydration of c2-3-4 without pressure on nerve structures ( for example my nerve c3-4 left side was herniated i see this by my self)
There is no room for surgical intervention
dr corenamn I thank you for your reference, yours
You have a great website and I know I may have written a lot but I tried to refer to the page you referred me toMeni
#34210 In reply to: L5-S1 Discectomy Recovery Question |Is it normal to still have these inflammation related symptoms 5 months post op? It is not normal to have more intense significant symptoms 5 months post-op. You did however wait a full year before surgery so recovery will be much slower than normal. Did you have a new post-op MRI to determine your current status.
Is the tightness and pain coming from the nerve root itself do you think or is it possible I’ve got some piriformous issues or something else? Most likely, the pain is generated by the inflamed nerve root. The reason we recommend surgery more rapidly is that constant chronic compression of the root can cause further damage to the root, sometimes causing chronic radiculopathy See: https://neckandback.com/conditions/chronic-radiculopathy/
Do you have any theories on why I needed that adjustment from the chiropractor to get relief post-op?
That is interesting and an uncommon (but obviously welcome) result from a manipulation. I can’t understand why.Is there anything else I should be doing to help my recovery along? I would recommend a new MRI to make sure the root is decompressed and if it is, an epidural steroid injection (TFESI) See: https://neckandback.com/treatments/epidural-injections-and-selective-nerve-root-blocks-diagnostic-and-therapeutic/
Dr. Corenman
PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.#34203 In reply to: weakness in levels above TLIF |This was the description of the fusion as of this months, about 3 weeks shy of the 1 year mark.
Intact L5-S1 fixation construct in place with bilateral pedicle screws, vertical rods, and interbody device. No significant periprosthetic lucency to indicate component loosening.
At the left L5-S1 facet joint, there is bony bridging that appears to be progressing towards osseous union. No joint gas to suggest excess motion. No posterolateral osseous union on the right.
At the L5-S1 disc space on the right, there is bony spicule formation that may span the entire height of the disc space. There also appears to be developing bony bridging at the site of the interbody device, although hardware related artifact precludes accurate assessment. No intervertebral disc gas to suggest excess motion.
Vertebral body heights are preserved.Symptoms: back pain and leg pain, right worse than left.
Back Pain-central, the return of a sharp “catching” feeling has come back when exercising. The pain is more intense with position changes, it aches after standing upright for longer than 45 minutes. Squatting and leaning very forward when sitting takes pressure off. Turning over in bed creates pain in my spine. Many of these issues got better at about the 4-6 month mark post fusion.
Leg pain/weakness. Right side has always been worse. The L5 S1 i’m sure has chronic damage but many of the intense nerve pain/nerve sensations in that dermatome had improved until about 1-2 months ago when i really increased my exercise/activity. I do now have pain and weakness in other areas of my right leg and i have an emg to look further into that in 1 month. Prior to surgery i had some neurogenic claudication in both legs, again this improved after recovering from the tlif but has returned. Also, when i stand up straight and still my right leg, under my knee all the way to my toes on the right side, goes numb and tingly, it happens often when sitting up right as well.
Many of these symptoms blend together when i compound activities (i.e cycling, running, swimming, strength training). At this point i’m trying to continue my current level of activity but its getting harder and harder, it seems like my back is just declining again and i’m paying for my activities with pain more and more.
Thank you
#34169 In reply to: Back Pain & Sciatica 5 months after microdisectomy |According to this report, you have at least a seroma surrounding the root. The radiologist does not talk about the possibility of infection but of inflammation.
“Post contrast there was enhancing tissue to the left of the spinous process extending through the surgical defect and enhancing tissue on be left lateral aspect the theca! sac and tissue enhancement extendrg u;) to the adjacent nerve root”
He does not discuss nerve root displacement or tension on the root. This nerve pain might all be post-op inflammation/seroma but the jury is still out. I would consider lab tests to rule out infection and if “normal”, then an oral steroid for starters.
Dr. Corenman
PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books. -
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