opinion about discogel?

Tagged: Discogel

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nikolaus
Member

January 6, 2012 at 9:49 pm

Post count: 11

#5317

Hi,

I was just wondering, have you heard of discogel? what is your opinion about it? Do you think it is scam? Does it work?

There are some doctors in my country which praise it as a miracle solution.

Donald Corenman, MD, DC
Moderator

January 7, 2012 at 6:27 am

Post count: 8660

#5318

This product is new. According to the concept which I copied below from the manufacturer’s site, this product is designed to denature the proteins in the disc. This means this product will break the proteins down which are designed to absorb water and hold pressure in the disc.

This is a repeat of the old chymopapain treatment that was dropped some years ago because of serious complications. Any product that denatures proteins can leak out of the disc space into the canal. Unfortunately, the canal is full of proteins. If this leaks out into the canal, disaster can occur. I would not consider this to be a treatment that I would want my patients to undergo.

FROM THE MANUFACTURER SITE: “The latest development in this area is the intra-discal micro-therapy with DiscoGel®. This treatment method, which as developed by French researchers, utilizes a congealed alcohol mixed with a contrast agent, which is injected through a thin cannula directly into the intervertebral disc. The compound results in a loss of the water storage capacity of the intervertebral disc by denaturation the proteo-glycan matrix of the nucleus pulposus. This in turn results in a progressing decompression of the effected spinal nerves within hours to a few days”.

Dr. Corenman

PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.

Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.

ADR Seeker
Member

May 3, 2012 at 11:18 am

Post count: 3

#6161

Dr. Corenman post=1006 wrote: This product is new. According to the concept which I copied below from the manufacturer’s site, this product is designed to denature the proteins in the disc. This means this product will break the proteins down which are designed to absorb water and hold pressure in the disc.

This is a repeat of the old chymopapain treatment that was dropped some years ago because of serious complications. Any product that denatures proteins can leak out of the disc space into the canal. Unfortunately, the canal is full of proteins. If this leaks out into the canal, disaster can occur. I would not consider this to be a treatment that I would want my patients to undergo.

FROM THE MANUFACTURER SITE: “The latest development in this area is the intra-discal micro-therapy with DiscoGel®. This treatment method, which as developed by French researchers, utilizes a congealed alcohol mixed with a contrast agent, which is injected through a thin cannula directly into the intervertebral disc. The compound results in a loss of the water storage capacity of the intervertebral disc by denaturation the proteo-glycan matrix of the nucleus pulposus. This in turn results in a progressing decompression of the effected spinal nerves within hours to a few days”.

Dr. Corenman

DiscoGel is the percutaneous injection of radio opaque gelled alcohol. When in comes in contact will water it forms an solid artificial nuclear prothesis so the chances of it leaking are slim and none.

Even if it did leak it’s alcohol so it cannot harm adjacent tissue it is not proteolytic. Papain IS a proteolytic enzyme and is will not become solid and it will damage adjacent tissue.

In all the clinical trials there were ZERO adverse reactions. The same cannot be said for the any other treatment offered to Americans. It is 86% effective so compared to fusions and the crappy ADRs available to Americans DiscoGel is far superior.

So Doc is it that you don’t know that alcohol won’t dissolve tissues or are you being less than honest?

Folks, if DiskoGel, Ozone diskectomies and NeoDisk and M6 were available in the US the spine surgery market would be cut in half.

If you want your spine fixed right and you can afford it, go to England, Spain, Germany or Brazil.

Check out any spine forum and read what people are saying about American surgeon VS foreign surgeons. As to you “Dr” I’ll be discussing you and watching you.

Donald Corenman, MD, DC
Moderator

May 4, 2012 at 2:04 am

Post count: 8660

#6165

I do not know who you are as you do not identify yourself. Are you the manufacturer of this product?

Regardless- the website notes in the official blurb of “denaturation of the proteins”. Alcohol is tissue toxic but not an enzyme so I would think there is something else in the formula that causes this proteolytic destructive process.

I always find clinical trials to be suspect from the manufacturer until other none-financially related studies are brought to bear but that is my nature. No complications in a study is highly unusual as simple facet blocks and epidurals have typical complications and those procedures are a simple as it gets.

Your statements regarding “DiskoGel, Ozone diskectomies and NeoDisk and M6 were available in the US the spine surgery market would be cut in half” are not supported by the literature or my experience.

Dr. Corenman

PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.

Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.

ADR Seeker
Member

May 5, 2012 at 7:59 am

Post count: 3

#6167

I don’t work for DiscGel. I am a patient advocate who keeps his eye on deadly American doctors. The leading cause of death and injury in the US is the medical industry.

DiscoGel has two ingredients alcohol and tungsten.

Also, fusions fail at an alarming rate. Go to any spine site other than Spine-Health and you will find that the victims you get fusion regret it whereas the one who can afford to go outside the US and get a NeoDisk or the M6 disk are thrilled.

Do you work for Medtronics? Do you get kickbacks from them?

Are you OK with using Medtronic’s Infuse and implanting their metal on metal ion shedding ADR? It looks like you are.

Congress is investigating the payment to Orthopaedic Surgeons to hide serious side effects of the Medtronic Infuse Bone Graft. In addition, a recently released report stated that during clinial trials, Medtronic was aware of problems with the Infuse Bone Graft device.

The Plot Thickens!

Minneapolis, MN: Two former employees of Medtronic Inc.’s spinal products division have alleged that over 100 physicians and physician groups received kickbacks to promote Medtronic’s Infuse Bone Graft. The former employees made their claims in a federal whistleblower lawsuit last year, however the lawsuit was only recently made public.

Donald Corenman, MD, DC
Moderator

May 5, 2012 at 8:45 am

Post count: 8660

#6168

I hope you can be neutral in your beliefs and to be open to some education.

I have taken care of many patients from Europe and those with discal implants are the ones that I have seen that are unhappy. I am sure all are not unhappy but i see the failures and you need to be realistic. Implanted disc replacement material like discogel has demonstrated to fail in the same manner that herniated discs fail and possibly at a much higher rate.

Go back to the Thalidomide scandal to understand how Europe’s data sometimes can be skewed. Not all information that Europe produces is accurate. I do agree that products can be approved faster but you must take the information with a grain of salt.

In regard to Medtronics, I have received no money for use of products or any studies regarding their surgical products and Infuse. None-the-less, I am a big proponent of their products. I have been operating on the lumbar spine for more than 25 years and have been in spine for more than 35 years and think that Infuse is one of the most important breakthroughs in the last 20 years. Customer service from Medtronics is second to none and that is what you want in an operating room.

I see “failed spine surgery” cases every day. About 40% of my practice are new patients suffering from this problem. There are many causes as you can read under “Failed spine surgery correction” and fusion failure is a small part of them. The biggest portion is wrong diagnosis and poor patient selection/education.

I do receive payments from Medtronics for educating surgeons on the use of O-Arm and Stealth technology which are in my opinion, one of the other important breakthroughs that has occurred in spine surgery in the last 20 years. All proceeds go to research.

Dr. Corenman

PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.

Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
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Donald Corenman, MD, DC

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81 reviews

Eric S

Sep 26, 2021

by Eric S on Donald Corenman, MD, DC

Successful pars repair at 46 years old

Back in November of 2018 (at 46 years old) I came from Vancouver BC to have a pars repair done with Dr. Donald Corenman at the Steadman Clinic in Vail Colorado. I'm finally posting this review nearly three years later in late 2021. The reason I waited so long was I wanted to know the final result before I posted my review. Unfortunately in that time Dr. Corenman has retired. Nevertheless, I want to post this review of Dr. Corenman and his staff at the Steadman Clinic in their excellent treatment of my L5 pars interarticularis.

I fractured my pars at age 42 back in 2014 when rolling on the gym floor, and was denied treatment by the Canadian healthcare system, probably due to my age. First my GP told me there was no surgical option for a pars defect, which was quite incorrect! I tried to live with it, but the symptoms worsened (periodic random spine slippage and weeks of resultant pain after just bending over to tie my shoe, so I eventually learned to mostly squat and hardly bend). When I finally consulted with Canadian spine surgeons, I was told they believed my pars defect had been congenital (since birth). This was absurd, considering I had done extreme martial arts (including jiu jitsu) for years prior, as well as 5 years of reinforcing steel full time in my 20s, probably the hardest job on the back you can find. No pars defect like mine would possibly have allowed this--ergo it was impossible that I had had the defect since birth. I did however have an asymptomatic congenital spina bifida occulta that made me more susceptible to a pars fracture. In 2014 in one instant, I went from having the strongest back people I knew said they'd ever seen, to being unable to safely bend over and tie my shoe without a non-negligible risk of my spine slipping randomly (which would lead to weeks of pain after each occurrence). This was due to the unilateral L5 pars defect, otherwise known as spondylolysis. It was when lying in pain on the floor 4 years later after maybe the 6th spine slippage event post injury, that I had had enough, and resolved to have surgery. If Canada's "universal health care" said no, I would make lemonade from lemons, and find the very best surgeon in the world at pars repairs. That was Dr. Donald Corenman. Dr. Corenman back in 2018 ran a website https://neckandback.com/ that dedicated many pages to the science of every aspect of pars repairs, from eligibility (good discs on MRI), to best surgical techniques (minimal open compared to minimally invasive), best imaging to use (i.e., O-Arm with Stealth imaging vs. older fluoroscopy), the ideal amount of BMP to use and why not use too much or too little, and much more, all to do with pars repairs, pages upon pages of his site just on the pars, with scientific references and his own extensive expert opinion. As a health research statistician, I was very impressed with this. It was in stark contrast to the websites of other spine surgeons which barely gave the pars a word or two, focusing almost exclusively on fusions. I had found the best surgeon in the world for pars repairs, and so after Dr. Corenman personally screened my MRI to ensure my discs were healthy, I booked the surgery.

Being 46 years old at the time of surgery in 2018, with a 4-year-old pars fracture from 2014 combined with a congenital SBO meant my pars fragment was somewhat atrophied, but it was "very solid", said Dr. Corenman in the operative report. Nevertheless, it was challenging with two things to fix, the pars and SBO, and OR time was around 4 hours. Recovery over the following months was guided by a very clear "Spine binder" from the Steadman Clinic with strict rules of "no BLT" (no bending, lifting or twisting), and illustrated physiotherapy guidelines. They even warned patients to avoid fish oil supplements, which could excessively dampen inflammation and hence slow bone healing. They answered many questions I had during months of recovery, with responses coming from the very supportive Lori Fugate (then director of Dr. Corenman's practice), and Ehrich Bean (then physician's assistant at the practice), as well as a couple calls with Dr. Corenman himself after two of the CT scans. Ehrich Bean offered great advice for taking the spine binder conservatively due to the nature of pars repairs vs. fusions. The final post-op CT scan I had was a couple weeks ago at 34 months post-op, and Dr. Corenman had retired, but I got a very positive and informative call from Eric Strauch (current PA at the Steadman Clinic under Dr. Corenman's replacement there, and who had also worked with Dr. Corenman previously). The staff at the Steadman Clinic were extremely supportive all the way through the process. I should mention, the local Canadian spine surgeon did offer me very good post-operative support including antibiotics as needed to deal with a mild surface incision-site infection early on, booking numerous x-rays when I felt something was amiss, as well as booking all four of my post-op CT scans. I am very grateful for that support also.

My final result shows plenty of solid bone across the pars and a healed SBO, with my vertebral body now a solid bone ring instead of being broken at two places as it was pre-op. Does my spine hold up in the real world? You bet! I have recently dug and moved several yards of dirt and sand and gravel by myself (shovel and wheelbarrow!) to fix our water main, pulled roots from the yard, moved several "portable" (these are HUGE) air conditioners up several flights of stairs my myself, and lifted weights. I now run 2 miles (3.2 KM) several times weekly with a hard 100 meter dash in the middle. I bend deeply before each run I go on, with no spine slippage. My spine feels amazing. I can bend over to do exercise, or real word tasks, with no risk of spine slippage.

My sincere thanks to God, Dr. Donald Corenman, Lori Fugate, Ehrich Bean, Eric Strauch, and the Steadman Clinic, as well as the Canadian spine surgeon who offered me excellent post-operative care back in Canada. You have all given me a new lease on life.

Sincerely,
Eric S

Robert S

May 11, 2021

by Robert S on Donald Corenman, MD, DC

Back Fusion Surgery

I had my entire lumbar spine fused in November of 2018. I had scoliosis , with pinched nerves that were so painful I could hardly walk - and standing for more than a few minutes was impossible. Even sitting was painful.
The fusion surgery produced immediate relief! And the recovery was much easier than I expected.
To this day I can do all the activities I love from hiking, to standing in a stream fly fishing to riding my bike long distances - or just walking down the street with my wife.
Kudos to Dr. Corenman and his staff, (including the two Erics) for taking such good care of me!

Leslie R

Jul 9, 2020

by Leslie R on Donald Corenman, MD, DC

TLIF

I had my TLIF surgery on 6/24/2020 by Dr. Corenman, I can not say enough good things about the Dr or his staff. I was always treated with respect and explained everything throughly, that made it easy for everyone to understand. I highly recommend Dr. Corenman and the Steadman Clinic.

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