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in reply to: antalgic scoliosis, can it become permanent? #9529
Wasn’t able to write sooner because of some things that had to be done.
Well, what I learned from my experience is that in these situations you should really really try to avoid the “what if” way of thinking. Because, if you think about it, it does not help you no matter the outcome.
Yes, i saw improvement on the 6 month mark. But it was like: improvement, feeling better, plateaux, feeling bad, improvement, feeling better, plateaux, feeling bad and so on. In one of those plateaus, i had almost arranged the surgery but I cancelled because another improvement stage happened in the meanwhile. So, after a while, when you realize how it works, you have to persuade yourself to detach your feelings from the immediate results and try to focus on the long term outcome. If you are getting better, even in a slow pace, then you are getting better long term.
So, please, do not ask yourself if it would be better to do your exercises earlier or not. Or what would have happened if you had done things in a different way. You know why? Because the answer can’t be known. Remember: there is a chance that the exercises would be helpful, but, there is ALSO a chance that the same exercises would make the surgery more difficult, there is even a smaller chance that it would make the whole situation much much worst. Eg, in my case, my antalgia was the result of exercises which i did with the help of a physical therapist. There is no doubt about that because we were doing the exercises under the effect of voltaren and the moment i stopped the injections the body responded immediately with antalgia (within less than 6-8h, after end of exercises and sleep).Do you know what exercises we did? We did exercises to straighten the spine because the x-ray revealed a minimal scoliosis. So, the therapist believed that this caused the herniation and not the other way around. So he tried to “fix it”, in order “to decompress” the disk. You see? Those would be the same exercises i would have to do if the herniation was gone and my problem was the scoliosis itself.
So, you should perceive both choices: surgery or not, as equal. Both with risks, advantages and disadvantages. But once you have made a decision, its time to focus on the future. One way or another, you did decide to proceed with surgery. All the information you had (both from your body and from the doctors) lead you to this logical decision. So, it was a proper decision. You also have a baby which is a very important thing to consider. If i had a baby, i wouldn’t be able to wait that long for sure.
In my humble opinion, odds are strongly favoring you. They did remove the herniation, you do feel better and you did see a significant change, so you have every reason to believe that your spine will realign. But you have to give it time because, as you said, by removing the herniation at once, the body does not have enough time to adapt to the new signals sent to the brain.
If your herniation was the result of an accident, then i wouldn’t have any other advice to give to you other than to have patience. If your herniation was the result of life style, then, as a patient -and not a doctor-, i would say to you that even if the herniation is gone, its better to avoid sitting a lot before your spine realigns completely. And generally read the basics about the spine (there is a lot of info on the net these days), and avoid doing all those things that harm it until it realigns. Maybe Dr. Corenman can tell us what the doctors would say in this situation. Till your spine aligns though, stay positive, you really have every reason to be positive.
So, regarding the questions you ask me:
1) About specific exercises … I didn’t do any specific exercises to realign my spine, apart from walking. Initially small distances at slow pace, and increasing the distance day by day. But i did change my life style. When i injured my spine, i was working a desk job, sitting 8h-10h, 5 days per week. Now, i’m a teacher, so i can sit, stand, walk and switch, during teaching. This helped a LOT. If your injury is the result of your life style, then imho you should consider changing it since the body sent you a huge message that it hurts. Don’t focus on antalgia itself. Imho it will go away. Focus on the real problem so that long term you don’t end up on the same spot.
2) About my life at the time… wow that’s a tough question.
My life at the time of the intense antalgia was HELL. I mean, i couldn’t do anything. I stopped basketball and football which i enjoyed playing a lot. I couldn’t sit, I couldn’t run, I couldn’t walk. I couldn’t take a long bath. I felt terrible. I did blame myself at the time for the various mistakes i did that lead me to this situation. But, first you have to win the mind game, and then the physical one.
Did I expect to improve? yes. I did expect to improve. My fear was not whether i would improve or not. My fear was, and is, whether i will eventually be able to return to contact sports at 100%. Also, my fear was whether I will have to undergo spine surgery again and again till my 80s etc. Those were my fears.
There are many reasons why i decided to avoid surgery and was positive (as much as i could at least) during this period. I am not going to write all of them, i need a lot of space for that but, i will tell you one:
I saw more than 5 doctors. One of them told me that i should replace my disks with implants, the other one that i should do nothing but wait, the other one that i should choose microdiskectomy because it is the most tested technique and the other one that i should try discogel. The problem is that each doctor offered as a solution what he knows better to do. It didn’t make sense to me. So I searched the net a lot, and read a lot about spine. A LOT. I read publications about spine surgery, mckenzie books etc. I did that so that i could choose correctly which doctor to trust.
At the same period i posted my problem to a forum of my country, and asked for people who had the same problem to communicate with me. I still remember three people (but i have talked to more). The reason i did that was because i needed experience from the patients and not from the doctors:
The first one was a man at his early 50s, who had the same problem i had at his 30s. Huge herniation and antalgia. He wasn’t able to walk for about 1year or sth. He did reject surgery. And guess what? he was a wind surfer and he was able to wind surf at his 50s!!! So, he told me that the pain will go away, and that only a few people need to undergo surgery later on. He told me to not rush surgery, because surgery is always available. And that sometimes 3 or 4 years may pass before your return to normal life. Of course, if you have a family that’s a whole different story. But if you don’t have a family and can wait, then this period can be a training period to learn how to protect your spine.
That was very helpful to me, because from the net i had concluded that most people with back pain would have back pain for ever. But he didn’t follow that pattern. He had back pain for about 3-4 years, and then he had no back pain till his 50s (not even his 50s). That’s almost 15-20 years no pain.
The other one was a young kickboxer, around 28. He had the same problem, antalgia because of a huge central herniation because of an injury in kickboxing. Guess what? he also had pain for 1y, but at 1y 1/2 he returned to kickboxing. At the moment we talked he was back in training but he decided to stop kick boxing competitively. He also told me that it is a nightmare and that you will have to be patient.
The third one, was a lady at her 40s 50s i am not sure. Again the same thing. Herniation at her middle 30s, antalgia etc. She chose surgery *immediately*, within 1 week or so. Her surgery had complications (spine fluid loss or sth? i dont know how it is called in english). Despite that, more than 10 years had passed without pain AT ALL. She was a success story of microdiskectomy.
So you see, these people helped me understand that both choices (waiting or microdiskectomy – i immediately excluded fusion from the list) could lead to a painless life and that things are not as bad as they seem. So i decided to wait, mostly because i didn’t find a proper doctor to trust.
If all the doctors had given me the same advice, perhaps i would have had chosen to proceed with the surgery but the fact that each one was suggesting a different method caused distrust to me.
So, stay positive. Most probably your spine will realign, and if it does not completely realign, there are plenty of exercises you can do to strengthen your body and live a normal life.
in reply to: antalgic scoliosis, can it become permanent? #9515Princess,
Please keep in mind that although we had some common symptoms (antalgia because of disk herniation, rotations as you describe), we can’t be sure that your body responds the same way as mine did. In fact, i had intense sciatica pain, while you had not. You had surgery, i had not. So, this is only my story. Nothing more.
So, at my worst point, i had “twisted pelvis” too, or whatever that is called. I was told that this is always the case: The muscles from the side of the herniation go into spasm. The rest of the spine has to lean on the other side in order to keep you balanced. Sometimes, the rest of the spine leans on the same side, which depends on where exactly your herniation is. So, when your torso leans to one side, the pelvis **has** to rotate to compensate. This rotation is the rule, not the exception. The pain at that point was like hell. I had pain EVERYWHERE, i couldn’t locate it. In fact, some doctors at that time offered me spine fusion because they were claiming that discectomy would only help sciatica pain and not lower back pain (while others were telling me that those who suggested fusion were idiots, as usual).
My mind was telling me that the real reason was the herniation, but they wouldn’t guarantee that the lower back pain would go way. So, that was another reason why i didn’t rush into surgery. I said, wtf, i am not going under knife if the lower back pain can remain forever. Because (PERSONAL ASSUMPTION) the surgery itself may interrupt a natural smooth realignment process of the muscles. So, what happens when you cut them? pierce them? mess them up? I had surgery in the past, for other reasons, and what i learned from that experience was that it is a bad idea to mess with something when it is on its peak. Esp when you are under pain and inflammation. Unless you absolutely absolutely absolutely know what is going on (END OF PERSONAL ASSUMPTION). I have to say that today: ALL THIS “VAGUE” PAIN IS 100% GONE (YEEE!). I mean 100%. Not 99%. Gone, completely, zero, no pain. So all this pain was the result of muscle spasms and system shock. So i believe your physio was correct on that. I also had sciatica and lower back pain. Lower back pain is gone now, and the sciatica is gone, apart from some rare tingles across the left nerve.
Some other stuff to note: i didn’t see improvement within three months. I saw minor improvement at approx 6 months. At 12 months the pain was much less, but i was in pain nevertheless and my spine was not completely aligned. The big improvement was at about 15-18 months. Maybe a year and a half later. I had knee pain too. Both knees will be out of position for a while. Its common sense. Torso leaning right, pelvis rotated left, now you have leg length differences. One of them will bear more weight. So, please, protect it. Really, its as simple as it gets. You will have all the symptoms people with scoliosis have for a while. Thats normal. Protect your neck too. I had neck pain for a while too (but not much).
Now, the muscles do shrink, its true. It took approx 2 years to be able to rotate my spine painless 360 degrees. I am serious. I managed to jog painless at approx 2y. The recovery is not a fast process. It was as slow as you can imagine.
Now, some stuff i concluded from my xp (which may be completely wrong):
Rule #1: When your spine is at the super painful scoliosis stage:
1) YOU MUST NOT WALK. It is common sense. everything is out of place. How can walking help? Your disks are seriously crushed by assymetric forces. You can only cause more damage. If you wake up one morning and you have antalgia (or whatever this is called), PLEASE STAY AT HOME. DONT RUSH TO DOCTOR. Dont walk, dont move. Call if you like, but please, dont start walking.
2) YOU MUST NOT SIT. FORGET IT. You can’t. 90 degrees on a messed up spine. Try to image what happens on the discs. So, I didn’t sit for a year. I am serious. No chair for a year. And even know, i try to not sit for more than 4h without break. I type in bed. Surf in bed. I stand, i walk, but chair, it is only for eating and working when you can’t work in some other way. Even now, when i dont feel pain at all.
3) YOU MUST NOT DRIVE. (doh, obvious, most probably you cant anyway)
4) YOU MUST NOT LET ANYONE PUT HIS HANDS ON YOUR SPINE AND “ADJUST IT”. Everyone who tried to help me (all of whom which were famous “professionals” with expensive web sites full of promises) made the things WORST. If you see a big fat herniation, then you have your answer. He can’t heal it. end of story.Rule #2:
If you decide not to go under surgery, you must STOP ALL PAIN KILLERS. I stopped them all. Through them away. All. Just like that.Reason of my decision: Pain killers hide the pain. If you want to heal, you need feedback from your body. If you hide the pain and try to live a normal life, you will fack up more things in your body, and you lose the opportunity to understand what is going on inside you. You have to take that feedback and learn from it.
The thing that helped most (seriously, please don’t laugh):
1. Sleeping with a pillow between your legs. Okay, people say that it does work. I start doing it, and I was thinking: “wtf am i doing, this is placebo”. BUT, within approx 2-3 months, i managed to understand the difference. At first you just put the pillow, a HUGE PILLOW, not a SMALL PILLOW, between your legs and feel like a clown. BUT, if you use the pillow a lot, slowly you will find the body position that decompresses the discs at the max. I know it, because I can now find the position easily on my body and feel the decompression. And it was not easy. It took me about 2 months to find the optimal position. And i know that during the first month i was sleeping in a non optimal way. But I believe that the healing process happens mostly during the night, so, find your optimal position, to give your body the chance to take the maximum out of your healing time.
2. WALKING. Nothing else. Just SLOW walking. Find a friend and start walking *slowly*, with no stress about “your spine”. Don’t think about how to “walk properly”, don’t think about your belly and your breath, just get quality sport shoes (ofc no heels) and walk naturally and **slowly** as your body flows. Take your time.
Thats all i did, after trying physio, swimming, alexanders, mckenzie, pilates and manual therapy. My recovery started after i stopped them all (actually you could try mckenzie exercises, which helped me a little bit too)
And, oh my, my first walks were terrible. All muscles were complaining. I was VERY stressed, because i didn’t know whether I would ever recover. People were writing on the net that it goes away, some others that it may become permanent. Some others that you need a superdoctor to give you the super secret exercises or else you are doomed forever.
Doh, i dont know. I know i don’t feel any pain now. That’s for sure. And i just walked 12k today :-)
in reply to: antalgic scoliosis, can it become permanent? #9514@Dr. Corenman,
Indeed, i didn’t have significant motor weakness. In my worst period i couldn’t lift the left leg but it was because of pain and not because of motor weakness. That was the main reason why most doctors who examined me didn’t try to force me to proceed with surgery.
I think, at that stage, its all about tolerance to pain and need to work. Risk a surgery for faster recovery, or risk a slower recovery but with some other possible side effects too.
Both choices come with risks. But things are not as bad as they seem when you surf the internet.
in reply to: antalgic scoliosis, can it become permanent? #9508Hi princess,
I am not the doctor but i was the opener of the thread. It’s almost two years after my first post but i am still reading this thread since i get notifications whenever someone writes something. I think you were a little bit unlucky.
So, i am updating my story for the readers. To give them hope.
Its clear to me, after talking to many many doctors and patients, that each case is unique. Some people live nightmares and others come back to sports in no time. I was like you, seriously, unable to walk more than 1-2m. Spine rotated etc. Everything out of position. Could hardly sleep. Could hardly lift my left foot.
But, 2 years later, the pain is gone and as is the antalgic position. I didn’t proceed with surgery so I have no idea what happened to the herniation, but I am not going for another MRI unless i feel pain again.
The process was slow and painful. But to me, it did go away. I can walk and stand as much as i want with no pain at all. I have tested myself walking more than 10km with no pain at all. I can sit for about 5-6 hours with no pain. If my progress continues, i think that i will be able to safely run again in about year.
Exercises didn’t do shit. Injections nothing. Pain killers nothing. Slowly the body either blocked pain or healed. I have no idea. I dont think it just blocked the pain because i can lift my leg now which wouldn’t make sense if the herniation was still blocking the nerve (in my first MRI the herniation was completely blocking the left nerve). But NO specific exercise helped me. No physiotherapist.
Only time helped and, in my case, after the initial pain subsided, walking did the trick.
So there is hope, and i know the body can heal itself because i did. I have no idea if the surgery would be a better option for me and i have decided that if this ever happens again i will proceed with surgery because i had to live through almost a year of pain to see real improvements.
But, i am not regretting for my choices now (obviously) as i did manage to avoid surgery at least for some years, if not for ever.
So, i am the living proof that antalgic scoliosis may go away, as can the sciatica and the lower back pain, by itself.
in reply to: pain on tail bone, with an L4L5 disc herniation #5385K, I see.
I would like to thank you once again for your quick answers (I thank too much, lol).
The idea of the forum is great and the answers you provide are very helpful to many of us.
in reply to: pain on tail bone, with an L4L5 disc herniation #5383I understand.
I have been 4 months in bed and 4 months with difficulty walking. My problem is that there are clear signs of improvement month by month. On one hand I want to remove the herniation so that I can return to normal life faster, on the other hand it is obvious my body tells me it can heal if I give it more time.
My MRI on lower back shows no abnormality to the coccyx. So I guess it could be a soft tissue problem or not as you describe.
How could I know? orthopedic surgeons that have seen me only seem to care about the MRI and the disc herniation.
So, could you tell me which doctor specialty studies coccyx pain? orthopedicians? or dermatologists? or sth else.
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