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[strike][/strike]Dr. Corenman:
Would you go as far as to suggest all patients ask for all medical records? Anyone who has had to weed through a fat chart in the hospital knows that these records are filled with a lot of garbage (hopefully that word is permissible to the sensor). Clearly, it is a common practice for a clinician to simply copy the history and physical exam notes found in a previous entry by another clinician who may well have done the same thing. In all fairness, these physicians are in many cases having their “productivity” monitored and they need to get on to the next patient. I think we can pretty much assume that there are inaccuracies in our records. We have a right to this information; do we have a responsibility to monitor it?
I have never requested notes from a physician. I think this could be interpreted as hostile. I only happened to receive the note to which I refer in my post above because I had requested an “X-ray report” to go along with my $15 disc. The note did not contain an opinion on the films, BTW (unless mention of the old spinous process fracture that never occurred counts). Frankly, I wish I hadn’t seen the note! It pissed me off.
If everyone requested their records and asked that inaccurate information be amended (HIPAA says this should be done within one month of the request), would doctors have time for anything else.
Cheers,
HSW:
Under HIPAA, patients have a right to amend their medical records. Here is a link to the US Department of Health and Human Services information pertaining to your rights in regard to your medical record. (I am assuming that the encounter took place in the US.)
Note: this forum does not allow urls so I have inserted 3 spaces in the address. When you cut and past this into your browser, you will have to delete these spaces before pressing return. (Let me know if you are unable to access this info!)
ht tp://ww w.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/consumers/medicalrecords.ht ml
“Correcting information
If you think the information in your medical or billing record is incorrect, you can request that the health care provider or health plan amend the record. The health care provider or health plan must respond to your request. If it created the information, it must amend the information if it is inaccurate or incomplete. If the provider or plan does not agree to your request, you have the right to submit a statement of disagreement that the provider or plan must add to your record.”Cheers,
HDear Maquingo:
To whom are you addressing your reply? I am not inclined to post the name of surgeon in question in a public forum, especially as I have provided a fair bit of clinical detail. I am curious as to why you are seeking this information. If this forum has messaging capability, you are welcome to send me a private message.
Hart
I had a VERY similar experience although the spine surgeon in question is well established and possessed reasonably nice “bedside manner”. He performed NO physical exam. He stood in front of the computer screen and I sat in a chair, fully clothed, probably 8 feet away. He commented on an MRI of my T-spine. (Perhaps, I shouldn’t have let him see it!) I was complaining of neck pain.
I did not have any recent cervical spine imaging. The nurse required me to have office X-rays of the neck BEFORE I saw the doctor for the first time. (Axial views were not obtained, incidentally.)
I asked for a “report” on the C-spine film (for my records) which I think the surgeon is required to record if he is billing for both the technical and professional component of office x-rays. (Incidentally I was charged $15 for a CD of my X-ray.) I was provided with the “notes” from my visit. Reflexes, strength, ROM were graded. Babiniski and Lhermitte were negative, etc. All signs were reported to be negative or normal. He did note one positive “finding”…slight pain on rotation. In the history, he did get as far as “chief complaint”. I had told him that it hurts to turn my head and that I couldn’t turn it very far.
Over two decades ago, I sustained a C7 anterior vertebral body fracture landing short…very short…on a back flip. Over the years, I have been told this is a “typical” injury. During the visit I told the surgeon about this and he quickly pointed to the X-ray and said…there it is. In the notes he recorded this as “C7 spinous process fracture’. My FP and I were curious about this so she sent me to an “imaging center”. I wrote the radiologist a letter explaining the injury, my FP’s concern (about chiropractors!) and asking for a comment on C7. We got the comment. In all fairness, the changes are subtle…my chiropractor told me that it is the stuff that chiropractors always see but radiologists may miss if not pushed. Maybe it is OK if the surgeon missed a somewhat subtle change in shape of a vertebral body after so many years of bone reformation. However, he reported an old spinous process fracture…which never existed.
But THIS is what really got to me! I had previously seen a PM&R who works in the same office for evaluation of a large thoracic disc herniation and corresponding radiculopathy. (I do have a thread going on this and I am ever grateful for your help!) I chose a PM&R at that time because a couple spine surgeons who had seen my MRI (though not me) said injection was my best bet. The PM&R had highly discouraged me from injection. He told me that this would be pushing me one step closer to surgery…silly logic. (Interestingly, the PM&R also told me that “these problems are very easy to fix…small operation”.) Anyway, the spine surgeon recorded in his notes that I had refused injection to the thoracic spine during an appointment with his PM&R colleague six months earlier. The reason I saw the PM&R was to get a referral for injection!
I did see the surgeon once more to review the results of a C-spine MRI that probably wasn’t indicated in the first place. (This group owns an MRI.) I did “confront” him about the injection comment and set the record straight. He told me that I need to understand that transcription errors occur. He did not offer to amend his comments. I did not mention his comments about C7 fracture. I don’t think this is my place. I did though send him the detailed report I obtained from a radiologist about the changes at C7 which the radiologist stated were consistent with vertebral body fracture and the mechanism of injury. As for the fabricated physical exam, I did not say anything. However, I think he practices in a field where there is some likelihood of limitation after surgery… some real “exposure”. I think it would have been in HIS best interest to perform a thorough physical exam and carefully document any “preexisting” limitations.
Dear rdg426:
Thank you for sharing your story. I am sorry to hear of your spinal woes! I have had a difficult time but am doing reasonably well.
I grew up in Ohio and I am now in California. What is the chance of that? Do you have floating 10th ribs too? Dr. Corenman, I found a professor of surgery interested in cutting off that newly protruding tenth rib. Now that my disc herniation has shrank and my belly has filled back in with muscle, the rib is tucked away and almost no bother! EXACTLY like you said in this thread! T9 spinal nerve must innervate some of that musculature? And to think I could have been stuck with another neuropathy!
Rdg426, one good thing about CA is the “pain mandate”. You have a right to pain control. Acutely, this is probably going to mean narcotics and you should be able to obtain them easily in CA. If you can’t tolerate them (like me), you can get Zofran for the nausea and a benzodiazepine (trade names are rejected as spam!) for the agitation. Of course, this is not an ideal long term solution but you can get pain relief and I think knowing this is important. I tried ketorolac IV in an ER and found it very GOOD! But it is hard on the kidneys when used for more than a few days and the oral preparation didn’t seem as effective. Ketorolac is an NSAID with some unique properties and I would recommend in an ER situation, saving narcotics until you are confident you are in good hands. I was seriously afraid of ending up with a laparotomy (getting the belly cut open) and I was determined to have my wits about me.
I saw a highly regarded spine surgeon here who told me. “It herniated once, it’s herniated twice, come see me when it herniates again and I’ll fix it. In the meantime, here are a few (undated scripts) for PT next door.” NOT FUNNY!
I have a great chiropractor. I had a great PT but I am running my own show now in that regard. I have discovered Foundation Training, a technique developed and promoted by a Santa Barbara chiropractor, Eric Goodman. He advocates strengthening the posterior chain muscles, the muscles on the back of the body as opposed to focusing on the abdominal muscles. It’s not about the six pack! If Dr. Corenman is familiar with this approach, I would be interested in what he has to say about it! foundationtraining dot com (urls not permitted on this site)
This summer, I recovered enough to walk in the Alps. I had really underestimated my fitness. I complete a week long (often outlined as a 10-12 day endeavor) hike of the Vanoise region (France) in a week. I then did the GR54, a 10 day circuit around the Ecrins that is often touted as the hardest hike in Europe. At first I was scared by the littlest slip or tumble. Little by little, I realized how robust I am.
After a week home, I was sitting on a metal chair outside at my local coffee shop innocently working at my computer and one of the front legs broke. When I hit the ground, I felt an instant shock from the level of the umbilicus through the brain stem, I guess. I have had a very sore back but no radicular symptoms for the last couple months. I obtained plain films of the entire spine two weeks later. I didn’t seek further imaging. It has been psychologically very hard! I am reluctant to do many of the movements and activities that it took so long to get back.
NO SURGERY! Except under the specific circumstance mentioned by Dr. Corenman. You CAN find surgeons who will do it, chomping at the bit to do it. It’s not an operation spine surgeons get to do every day. There are a few different options and they are all difficult. NO SURGERY!
You have found an excellent resource! This site is amazing. Check out the videos. (BTW: you can find videos of a thoracotomy on youtube if there isn’t one here!) Dr. Corenman’s book is well done. Also check out this book by an LA spine surgeon… Do You Really Need Spine Surgery by Aaron G. Filler. He has a chapter devoted to the T-spine. He indicates that thoracic spine surgery is becoming a sub-specialty of sorts. If I remember correctly, he discusses the various procedures. Don’t get conned into the less invasive procedures…they have their own set of problems! NO SURGERY!
As for going out of state, I intend to visit Dr. Corenman for advice going forward. I hope you are taking new patients! Thanks you again for the insight. I am especially impressed with your advice/prediction regarding the rib!
Hart
Hi Dr. Corenman:
Sorry about the confusion! That is the new report. The machine and one of the radiologists were the same in both studies. The MRI was performed on a GE High Field 1.5 Tesla Signa Infinity Excite. I read that 3T is out there on the street but the machine in question seems pretty typical. I have sussed out the radiologists involved. I feel like I stumbled on some pretty good ones. I deliberately went back to the same machine and asked for the same neuroradiologist, a young doctor with an impressive CV. I got a different radiologist this time, an older guy without the “neuro” in “radiologist”, a former flight surgeon who served as director of the radiology residency program at Presbyterian/Saint Luke’s Medical Center in Denver for a decade. He did consult the radiologist who read the initial film. They found the change remarkable. The radiologists received detailed “orders” for both these studies. In the event that the study was inadequate for whatever reason, wouldn’t the radiologist report it as such and recommend further imaging?
To review:
04 JAN 2011 — the initial study reported by the young neuroradiologist
IMPRESSION: T9-T10 RIGHT SUBARTICULAR ZONE LARGE DISC EXTRUSION EXTENDING 4.7 MM POSTERIORLY AND 10 MM SUPERIORLY WITH RIGHT LATERAL RECESS STENOSIS AND MASS EFFECT ON THE EXITING RIGHT T9 NERVE
Reported elsewhere: “A focal T10 inferior endplate defect is compatible with a Schmorl’s node as well as at T12 superior endplate.” “Remaining thoracic levels demonstrate no significant disc herniation or central canal stenosis.”
08 NOV 2011 — the follow up study reported by the older radiologist who, BTW, reports more Schmorl’s nodes than the first radiologist in addition to posterior bulging in the lower levels of the T-spine.
IMPRESSION:
1. THE PRIOR EXAM OF JAN/04/11 SHOWED A LARGE FAR RIGHT LATERAL DISC EXTRUSION WITH CEPHALAD MIGRATION OF THE EXTRUDED DISC. THIS AREA HAS SHOWN REMARKABLE IMPROVEMENT SINCE THE LAST EXAM WITH NOW ONLY A 3MM RIGHT LATERAL PROTRUSION AND NO DEFINED NERVE ROOT COMPRESSION.2. MILD MULTILEVEL DEGENERATIVE DISC DISEASE WITH ENDPLATE SPONDYLOSIS AND SMALL SCHMORL NODE DEFECTS T7-8 THROUGH T10-11.
3. MINOR 1MM POSTERIOR ANULAR BULGING T8-9, T10-11 AND T11-12
4. STABLE APPEARANCE OF A SMALL BENIGN SIGNAL ABNORMALITY WITHIN THE ANTERIOR T9 VERTEBRAL BODY.
Elsewhere in the report: “Discs: Moderate disc desiccation and mild degenerative thinning multiple interspaces to include T7-8 through T10-11. This is unchanged in appearance.”
So “normal” was my doing! It is not REALLY normal. But if we were to round up healthy more or less normal 40 somethings on the street who never complained of back pain, could we find such? If degenerative disease is normal aging as some argue, after a certain age, a normal MRI would not be possible. So what exactly is a normal MRI at age 45 or 55 or 65?
1mm posterior bulges? I have watched your videos on MRI which are very good. And looked at some normal MRIs. Discs look a bit bulge-y all stacked up between the vertebrae, to this casual observer. Those 1mm bulges were not reported on the previous film but the radiologist who read the followup film points out that they are unchanged from the previous film. This suggests to me that they are on the threshold of reportable findings.
Yesterday, Friday PM, I left a message with Diana in your office with my details.
Cheers,
Hart -
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