Forum Replies Created
-
AuthorPosts
-
in reply to: Need info about MRI and pain in low back #4853
Incapacitating lower back pain for 15-20 years with failure of conservative treatment means you could be a surgical candidate. It depends upon the results of the physical examination, the MRI and X-rays, possible further testing (discograms and/or SNRBs) and your expectations of surgical results.
Let’s just assume your discs above L5-S1 are pristine on MRI and your alignment of all discs but L5-S1 on X-ray including flexion/extension films is within normal limits. If your examination makes the diagnosis unclear or there is suspicion of a possible pain processing issue (abnormal brain processing of pain), you would need discograms (see website). If your diagnosis was crystal clear, you might not need further workup.
If everything was crystal clear on the diagnosis, most likely a TLIF of L5-S1 would have a 85-90% chance of reducing your lower back pain by 2/3rds. This means that if one hundred patients were operated on with your exact diagnosis, 85 to 90 individuals would agree that they have approximately 66% relief of the previous lower back pain.
Dr. Corenman
PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.You report a large disc herniation at the left L5-S1 level. You unfortunately developed severe incapacitating pain in your leg associated with motor weakness. I’m glad you received chiropractic care that gave you relief but it would have been better to have seen a surgeon early. Two of the indications for a microdiscectomy are severe incapacitating pain and motor weakness and you did fit both qualifications.
If you had a disc herniation at L5-S1 with weakness, I assume you have weakness of the left calf muscles (gastrocnemius/ soleus group) and cannot tip toe while walking on that side. You report numbness and paresthesias (pins and needles feeling) in your left leg but no back or leg pain.
Based upon what you have told me, it appears that you need a microsurgery to remove the compressive disc from the S1 nerve. The fact there is no true pain is not necessarily a good sign as that portion of the nerve may not be transmitting due to possible compression and damage of the nerve root.
The surgeon advised a laminectomy and discectomy. I would assume that he meant a microdiscetomy which involves a very small laminotomy. If he wanted to do a laminectomy, that might have been overkill but I have not seen the MRI yet.
Surgeries proposed by different surgeons vary. I have seen fusions proposed for patients that have only needed decompressions, so I do not assume anything anymore. If you have a massive herniated disc that fills the canal and it cannot be removed without severe danger to your nerve roots, there is a very rare occasion that a full laminectomy can be necessary. I can tell you that I have never found it necessary to remove a herniation by that method but I can conceive of a situation where that might be necessary.
I would assume this surgeon means a laminotomy and microdiscectomy or discectomy (surgical procedure performed with loupes- not a microscope). It is the simplest of all spine procedures that I perform. If he is talented and meticulous as I assume many surgeons are, this procedure should go well without complications.
Dr. Corenman
PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.in reply to: middle back pain #4847A disc herniation at one level in the thoracic spine will not by itself cause another disc herniation at a different level. That being said, you may have a genetic predisposition for disc herniations.
Over time, many symptomatic thoracic disc herniations will “heal” or become much less symptomatic. Some don’t and need treatment like epidural injections or facet blocks. Rarely, one might need surgical intervention.
It is exceedingly rare to have a thoracic disc herniation cause leg pain. I have seen one case in my career. A thoracic disc herniation will not cause arm symptoms.
Dr. Corenman
PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.in reply to: microdiscectomy recovery #4844A new MRI is only warranted if you have had a significant change of symptomatology and not just relief of symptoms. If you had more intense pain or different pain, a new MRI is necessary.
Some spine surgeons have different algorithms for treatment but most will perform surgery sooner than later if weakness is present.
An epidural in the presence of weakness I feel is not the best idea because it will reduce the symptoms of pain and paresthesias (tingling) but will do nothing to reduce the pressure on the nerve root. The patient (and ordering physician) will feel there is substantial improvement because the annoying symptoms have been reduced and will be lulled into thinking there is less compression on the nerve root which is not accurate.
There are times that an extruded disc herniation (a herniation that is fully ejected from the disc space and is an unattached free fragment in the canal) will migrate out of the canal in a short period of time. The operating surgeon will find the tear in the disc and some small fragments but the main offending herniation is not to be found.
I have seen on some occasions that the fragment is missed in surgery as it might be “tucked away” in a hidden corner and doesn’t reveal itself easily. These patients will have continued pain and weakness after surgery and have to be differentiated from chronic radiculopathy patients (see website for that condition).
The post-operative treatment varies from surgeon to surgeon. Your surgeon uses a back brace. I use a soft corset like those seen on Home Depot employees for six weeks. A recurrent disc herniation can occur in the immediate post-operative period and the position of BLT needs to be avoided (bending and lifting while twisting). The corset reminds the patient not to BLT.
I take care of many flight attendants and six weeks is not unreasonable to return to work if you have a strong core and good body mechanics. There is considerable overhead work with your job which magnifies bad body mechanics. The key here will be the physical therapist as this individual will be working closely with you for this period. I would depend upon the therapist to tell me if there are any remaining mechanical faults or weakness that would put your return to work in jeopardy. Of course, you need an experienced spine therapist to make that judgement.
The lump in your back is most likely from a seroma that developed or inflamed muscle and fascia and should soon recede. If it is painful to lie back with sitting, you can use a small wash cloth, fold it over and cut out a center hole slightly bigger than the protrusion. Tape this over the area. This will reduce the pressure while sitting. You could also tape this to your corset and wear the corset while you work for another 4 weeks.
Re-rupture of L4-5 is called a recurrent disc herniation and the chances are 10% in an active population.
Hope this helps.
Dr. Corenman
PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.in reply to: Need info about MRI and pain in low back #4841Let us start from the beginning. The MRI is applicable only after we have an idea of the symptoms, then the history of how this started, what treatment you have had and any consultations and opinions. A physical examination is important to narrow the potential disorders and then the MRI is used along with standing X-rays including flexion and extension X-rays to determine what the disorder is.
Obviously, a physical examination can’t be performed over the internet (at least at this time) so we am limited to vignettes.
Let us start with symptoms. You state “I do have some leg and buttocks pain that shoots down my leg from time to time with severe fair ups”. Also “I try to stay active but walking, sitting and standing really make things worse so I walk with a cane to help with support”.
So you have buttocks and leg pain but no lower back pain. You do not note the side of leg pain. Buttocks and leg pain normally originate from the same source, compression of the nerve root. Walking and standing increase the pain. This is normally generated from foraminal or lateral recess stenosis (see web site). Use of a cane normally is necessary if there is motor weakness (you don’t state if you have weakness- only a reference from the injection physician) or from the need to bend forward while ambulating. Forward bending with walking is caused by a deformity of the lower or mid back (unlikely in your case) or antalgia (the need to assume a particular position because of pain- more likely in your case). Did you get any relief from the epidural injections?
So possibly we are looking for the cause of foraminal stenosis or lateral recess stenosis. You state the MRI notes the L5-S1 segment is not in alignment. The radiologist did not note this on the MRI but the lack of notation of that finding is not unusual. If there truly is a slip of L5 on S1, the cause most likely would be from degenerative spondylolisthesis or isthmic spondylolisthesis (see web site).
Degenerative spondylolisthesis is caused by significant wear of the facets where in isthmic spondylolisthesis, the facets are normally pristine as they are not loaded because of the old pars fracture. The MRI report states “”The L5-S1 level shows a bulging annulus and bilateral facet” “hypertrophy. There is increased bulging towards the left, causing impingement of the left S1 nerve root as was previously noted. Mild bilateral foraminal narrowing is present.”
Bilateral facet hypertrophy is a code word for significant facet arthritis or severe wear of the facets. This goes along with the diagnosis of degenerative spondylolisthesis and your observation of the slip at L5-S1 (you possibly picked it up when the radiologist missed it!) may complete the picture.
Putting it all together leads to a possible degenerative spondylolisthesis of L5-S1 with either foraminal or lateral recess stenosis compressing the L5 or S1 nerves (or both). Your nerve root is compressed with standing and walking forcing you to lean forward which requires a cane for ambulation. I assume you are in much less pain with sitting or lying down with your knees bent or standing and leaning over a counter.
If this is correct, there are many disorders that can be helped by acupuncture but this is not one of them. Depending upon the length of time you have had this and the treatments you have undergone, you might be a candidate for surgery. The surgery would depend upon the stability of the vertebra and that can be determined by both the MRI and standing X-rays including flexion and extension views.
If you would like, you can send me the MRI and X-rays and I would be happy to throw in my 2 cents. Call the office and ask for Diana or Sarah at 970 476-1100.
Dr. Corenman
PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.I can understand how you feel. It is difficult to watch your loved one incapacitated. As you can probably tell from this forum, my speciality is diagnosis. I cannot promise any cure but more likely than not an appropriate diagnosis can be formulated. Even if this turns out to be arachnoiditis, there are treatments that can manage but not cure this disorder. If you so choose, please call the office at 970 476-1100 and ask for Diana or Sarah.
Dr. Corenman
PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.
Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books. -
AuthorPosts