Scapula Root Pain or Neck Root Pain??

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TracyC
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January 14, 2015 at 5:39 am

Post count: 5

#12029

I came in and saw you a little while back in 2014. You recommended diagnostic neck injections at C-2/C3 and C3/C4 due to possible joint damage. I haven’t been able to afford these injections, but I can soon. I am worried that maybe this might not be the right direction anymore (now that I have kept a pain journal and realized that my scapula area causes most of the pain, neck pain only comes once the scapula area flares up). I feel like my pain and issues are stemming from around my scapula and running along the scapulothoracic “joint”. I feel tightness, pain, clonus – when I press into this area with just my fingers at even a light touch, I will shake (whole body, jaw), hard time breathing, eyes want to close, stuttering while speaking, tightness into the top of shoulders and sometimes going into the neck and base of head. The flare ups are caused if I lift something overhead, very weak and shake. Or if I am sitting on say a couch and the pressure hits that scapula area. When it is at it’s worst, it will go into my neck typically ending at the base of my head on left side and will cause nerve pain along the left side of my face and near my eyes. I sometimes hear bone snapping, but typically only if I reach my hand around to say scratch my upper back. Do you think the original diagnostic tests are still the right direction? Or should I be seeing a specialist in the scapula area to rule that out first?

Tracy Carrothers

TracyC
Member

January 25, 2015 at 1:35 am

Post count: 5

#12062

Becky told me to re-submit this since I’m not getting an answer. Please respond! Thanks.

I came in and saw you a little while back in 2014. You recommended diagnostic neck injections at C-2/C3 and C3/C4 due to possible joint damage. I haven’t been able to afford these injections, but I can soon. I am worried that maybe this might not be the right direction anymore (now that I have kept a pain journal and realized that my scapula area causes most of the pain, neck pain only comes once the scapula area flares up). I feel like my pain and issues are stemming from around my scapula and running along the scapulothoracic “joint”. I feel tightness, pain, clonus – when I press into this area with just my fingers at even a light touch, I will shake (whole body, jaw), hard time breathing, eyes want to close, stuttering while speaking, tightness into the top of shoulders and sometimes going into the neck and base of head. The flare ups are caused if I lift something overhead, very weak and shake. Or if I am sitting on say a couch and the pressure hits that scapula area. When it is at it’s worst, it will go into my neck typically ending at the base of my head on left side and will cause nerve pain along the left side of my face and near my eyes. I sometimes hear bone snapping, but typically only if I reach my hand around to say scratch my upper back. Do you think the original diagnostic tests are still the right direction? Or should I be seeing a specialist in the scapula area to rule that out first?

Donald Corenman, MD, DC
Moderator

January 25, 2015 at 4:45 am

Post count: 8660

#12067

Your symptoms could originate from the neck or the scapula.

If you bring your arm up above your head but keep your head flexed forward (chin down toward chest) and develop this scapula pain, the source is more likely from the scapula. If so, the pain generator could be from the rotator cuff or from a bursa between the scapula and the ribs of the thoracic spine. My partner, Peter Millet is the expert on this scapula problem.

If however you don’t have much pain with the above maneuver but find that extending the head backwards (looking up to the sky), especially with a rotation to the side of the pain causes this scapula pain, this is more likely pain developed from the neck itself. Look up foraminal stenosis of the cervical spine to understand the origin of this pain. You would need to see me if this is the case.

These rules noted above are not absolute but about 80% accurate.

Dr. Corenman

PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.

Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.

TracyC
Member

January 25, 2015 at 8:14 am

Post count: 5

#12069

Thank you for the information! I tried both of those maneuvers. I tried the neck one and without rotation it was completely fine, but when I rotated left it felt tight and some pull/pain only in the neck area, maybe a little bit of dull ache at the base of the head afterwards. Just felt like the kind of tightness where I need to stretch it out. But when I do the scapula one, during and right after I started shaking a bunch, especially the jaw/head and my hand was shaking too and my arm area felt really heavy and weak – like hard to lift it back up overhead. I felt the headache, dizzy, eyes wanting to close, nausea, weird breathing, and out of it (like I talked about happens when I press on that scapula area in between my scapula and spine. Seems like it’s in between the ribs maybe where it’s bad like that when I directly push on it) But I’m guessing since the scapula test was the one that recreated my symptoms, that I should see Peter Millet. I did recently have a scapula MRI and shoulder MRI, but the orthopedic doc who ordered it pretty much admitted he isn’t expert in the scapula. So it hasn’t even really been read. I read on the radiology report about a subcoracoid joint effusion and increased marrow signal in the wing of the scapula and adjacent ribs. Not sure what that means obviously, but really was wanting to find an expert that could look at it that I could trust. So you think Peter has dealt with this kind of stuff before?

Donald Corenman, MD, DC
Moderator

January 25, 2015 at 10:31 pm

Post count: 8660

#12078

Peter Millet is my go-to guy for the shoulder. He operated on mine and I have no difficulties with my shoulder.

Dr. Corenman

PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.

Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.
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Donald Corenman, MD, DC

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81 reviews

Eric S

Sep 26, 2021

by Eric S on Donald Corenman, MD, DC

Successful pars repair at 46 years old

Back in November of 2018 (at 46 years old) I came from Vancouver BC to have a pars repair done with Dr. Donald Corenman at the Steadman Clinic in Vail Colorado. I'm finally posting this review nearly three years later in late 2021. The reason I waited so long was I wanted to know the final result before I posted my review. Unfortunately in that time Dr. Corenman has retired. Nevertheless, I want to post this review of Dr. Corenman and his staff at the Steadman Clinic in their excellent treatment of my L5 pars interarticularis.

I fractured my pars at age 42 back in 2014 when rolling on the gym floor, and was denied treatment by the Canadian healthcare system, probably due to my age. First my GP told me there was no surgical option for a pars defect, which was quite incorrect! I tried to live with it, but the symptoms worsened (periodic random spine slippage and weeks of resultant pain after just bending over to tie my shoe, so I eventually learned to mostly squat and hardly bend). When I finally consulted with Canadian spine surgeons, I was told they believed my pars defect had been congenital (since birth). This was absurd, considering I had done extreme martial arts (including jiu jitsu) for years prior, as well as 5 years of reinforcing steel full time in my 20s, probably the hardest job on the back you can find. No pars defect like mine would possibly have allowed this--ergo it was impossible that I had had the defect since birth. I did however have an asymptomatic congenital spina bifida occulta that made me more susceptible to a pars fracture. In 2014 in one instant, I went from having the strongest back people I knew said they'd ever seen, to being unable to safely bend over and tie my shoe without a non-negligible risk of my spine slipping randomly (which would lead to weeks of pain after each occurrence). This was due to the unilateral L5 pars defect, otherwise known as spondylolysis. It was when lying in pain on the floor 4 years later after maybe the 6th spine slippage event post injury, that I had had enough, and resolved to have surgery. If Canada's "universal health care" said no, I would make lemonade from lemons, and find the very best surgeon in the world at pars repairs. That was Dr. Donald Corenman. Dr. Corenman back in 2018 ran a website https://neckandback.com/ that dedicated many pages to the science of every aspect of pars repairs, from eligibility (good discs on MRI), to best surgical techniques (minimal open compared to minimally invasive), best imaging to use (i.e., O-Arm with Stealth imaging vs. older fluoroscopy), the ideal amount of BMP to use and why not use too much or too little, and much more, all to do with pars repairs, pages upon pages of his site just on the pars, with scientific references and his own extensive expert opinion. As a health research statistician, I was very impressed with this. It was in stark contrast to the websites of other spine surgeons which barely gave the pars a word or two, focusing almost exclusively on fusions. I had found the best surgeon in the world for pars repairs, and so after Dr. Corenman personally screened my MRI to ensure my discs were healthy, I booked the surgery.

Being 46 years old at the time of surgery in 2018, with a 4-year-old pars fracture from 2014 combined with a congenital SBO meant my pars fragment was somewhat atrophied, but it was "very solid", said Dr. Corenman in the operative report. Nevertheless, it was challenging with two things to fix, the pars and SBO, and OR time was around 4 hours. Recovery over the following months was guided by a very clear "Spine binder" from the Steadman Clinic with strict rules of "no BLT" (no bending, lifting or twisting), and illustrated physiotherapy guidelines. They even warned patients to avoid fish oil supplements, which could excessively dampen inflammation and hence slow bone healing. They answered many questions I had during months of recovery, with responses coming from the very supportive Lori Fugate (then director of Dr. Corenman's practice), and Ehrich Bean (then physician's assistant at the practice), as well as a couple calls with Dr. Corenman himself after two of the CT scans. Ehrich Bean offered great advice for taking the spine binder conservatively due to the nature of pars repairs vs. fusions. The final post-op CT scan I had was a couple weeks ago at 34 months post-op, and Dr. Corenman had retired, but I got a very positive and informative call from Eric Strauch (current PA at the Steadman Clinic under Dr. Corenman's replacement there, and who had also worked with Dr. Corenman previously). The staff at the Steadman Clinic were extremely supportive all the way through the process. I should mention, the local Canadian spine surgeon did offer me very good post-operative support including antibiotics as needed to deal with a mild surface incision-site infection early on, booking numerous x-rays when I felt something was amiss, as well as booking all four of my post-op CT scans. I am very grateful for that support also.

My final result shows plenty of solid bone across the pars and a healed SBO, with my vertebral body now a solid bone ring instead of being broken at two places as it was pre-op. Does my spine hold up in the real world? You bet! I have recently dug and moved several yards of dirt and sand and gravel by myself (shovel and wheelbarrow!) to fix our water main, pulled roots from the yard, moved several "portable" (these are HUGE) air conditioners up several flights of stairs my myself, and lifted weights. I now run 2 miles (3.2 KM) several times weekly with a hard 100 meter dash in the middle. I bend deeply before each run I go on, with no spine slippage. My spine feels amazing. I can bend over to do exercise, or real word tasks, with no risk of spine slippage.

My sincere thanks to God, Dr. Donald Corenman, Lori Fugate, Ehrich Bean, Eric Strauch, and the Steadman Clinic, as well as the Canadian spine surgeon who offered me excellent post-operative care back in Canada. You have all given me a new lease on life.

Sincerely,
Eric S

Robert S

May 11, 2021

by Robert S on Donald Corenman, MD, DC

Back Fusion Surgery

I had my entire lumbar spine fused in November of 2018. I had scoliosis , with pinched nerves that were so painful I could hardly walk - and standing for more than a few minutes was impossible. Even sitting was painful.
The fusion surgery produced immediate relief! And the recovery was much easier than I expected.
To this day I can do all the activities I love from hiking, to standing in a stream fly fishing to riding my bike long distances - or just walking down the street with my wife.
Kudos to Dr. Corenman and his staff, (including the two Erics) for taking such good care of me!

Leslie R

Jul 9, 2020

by Leslie R on Donald Corenman, MD, DC

TLIF

I had my TLIF surgery on 6/24/2020 by Dr. Corenman, I can not say enough good things about the Dr or his staff. I was always treated with respect and explained everything throughly, that made it easy for everyone to understand. I highly recommend Dr. Corenman and the Steadman Clinic.

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