Confused by symptoms versus MRI indications

Tagged: thoracic outlet syndrome vs radiculopathy vs rotator cuff disorder

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amywood20
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September 25, 2019 at 2:18 pm

Post count: 3

#31182

Hello! I have a question or two based on the MRI of my cervical spine. This is the noteworthy part:
Degenerative change with some loss of signal at the C5 vertebral body. Some slight reversal of the normal cervical occurred with osteophytic change at the C5-C6 level. C5-C6 shows bulge with some small annular fissure. This can be symptomatic. Central canal at this level is still well maintained. Foraminal regions show a small osteophyte on the right causing foraminal narrowing and foraminal stenosis.

The symptoms I have are mostly on the left side, with discomfort in the shoulder blade region, hand tingles that are sometimes thumb and index finger yet at times can also be felt in the entire hand or even the other fingers. I get an occasional hand tingle in the thumb and index finger on the right hand. My shoulder on the left side aches some when my arm is above my head. If I bend my neck back and hold it for over 10 seconds (only do this when testing what causes discomfort) it recreates the shoulder blade area discomfort on the left side. I can turn my head side to side without pain. When I am in my recliner or lying down I sometimes get twitches in my upper back on both sides. Sleeping on my back usually isn’t comfortable, neither is sleeping on the left side as again, it recreates the shoulder blade discomfort. Trying various pillows to help with neck support.

Where I am left confused is that the MRI notes more issues on the right side of the C5-C6 versus the left, yet my symptoms are on the left. Could the bulge itself cause this? Could this be a pinched nerve somewhere instead? As I have been chasing this issue I saw an orthopedic regarding the left shoulder to see if that was the issue. MRI for it only showed a low-grade partial tear of the infraspinatus. After the in-office assessment, the orthopedic shoulder doctor did not feel it was causing my issues and felt my issues were coming from the neck, as I noted what the cervical spine MRI indicated. I do see a spine doctor in November but since that is over a month away, I wanted to get your thoughts. I have had one steroid injection into the cervical spine two weeks ago and it did not help. I had a second one yesterday so it’s too early to say if it will be helpful or not. The dose was increased. Thanks!

Donald Corenman, MD, DC
Moderator

September 27, 2019 at 8:08 am

Post count: 8660

#31196

Your symptoms of “My shoulder on the left side aches some when my arm is above my head” could be from shoulder involvement (rotator cuff involvement-“low-grade partial tear of the infraspinatus”) or from thoracic outlet syndrome. See: https://neckandback.com/conditions/thoracic-outlet-syndrome/ and https://neckandback.com/conditions/rotator-cuff-syndrome-shoulder-impingement-syndrome/

Your symptoms “hand tingles that are sometimes thumb and index finger yet at times can also be felt in the entire hand or even the other finger” could be from radiculopathy but your MRI is not convincing for this. This could also be carpel tunnel syndrome. See https://neckandback.com/conditions/carpal-tunnel-syndrome/

Your complaint; “If I bend my neck back and hold it for over 10 seconds (only do this when testing what causes discomfort) it recreates the shoulder blade area discomfort on the left side” could be from nerve compression or from shoulder origin.

You can use diagnostic blocks to determine your pain generator. The simplest block would be a rotator cuff block done in the office. I don’t see enough root compression based upon your MRI to indicate a selective nerve root block but you might have a root involvement without compression. Thoracic outlet syndrome is diagnosed by clinical findings in the office.

Dr. Corenman

PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.

Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.

amywood20
Participant

September 27, 2019 at 9:33 am

Post count: 3

#31200

Thanks for the response! Out of the possibilities mentioned, what do you supposed would account for the pain in the upper shoulder blade region/spasms upon lying on my back? At times, this can affect both sides and not just the left. Thanks!

Donald Corenman, MD, DC
Moderator

September 29, 2019 at 6:43 am

Post count: 8660

#31209

The shoulder pain and spasm can originate from nerve root compression, thoracic outlet syndrome or from shoulder rotator cuff problems.

Dr. Corenman

PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS MEANT TO PROVIDE GENERAL INFORMATION ON SPINE ANATOMY, CONDITIONS AND TREATMENTS. TO GET AN ACCURATE DIAGNOSIS, YOU MUST VISIT A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL IN PERSON.

Donald Corenman, MD, DC is a highly-regarded spine surgeon, considered an expert in the area of neck and back pain. Trained as both a Medical Doctor and Doctor of Chiropractic, Dr. Corenman earned academic appointments as Clinical Assistant Professor and Assistant Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and his research on spine surgery and rehabilitation has resulted in the publication of multiple peer-reviewed articles and two books.

amywood20
Participant

September 29, 2019 at 7:27 am

Post count: 3

#31210

Thanks!
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Donald Corenman, MD, DC

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81 reviews

Eric S

Sep 26, 2021

by Eric S on Donald Corenman, MD, DC

Successful pars repair at 46 years old

Back in November of 2018 (at 46 years old) I came from Vancouver BC to have a pars repair done with Dr. Donald Corenman at the Steadman Clinic in Vail Colorado. I'm finally posting this review nearly three years later in late 2021. The reason I waited so long was I wanted to know the final result before I posted my review. Unfortunately in that time Dr. Corenman has retired. Nevertheless, I want to post this review of Dr. Corenman and his staff at the Steadman Clinic in their excellent treatment of my L5 pars interarticularis.

I fractured my pars at age 42 back in 2014 when rolling on the gym floor, and was denied treatment by the Canadian healthcare system, probably due to my age. First my GP told me there was no surgical option for a pars defect, which was quite incorrect! I tried to live with it, but the symptoms worsened (periodic random spine slippage and weeks of resultant pain after just bending over to tie my shoe, so I eventually learned to mostly squat and hardly bend). When I finally consulted with Canadian spine surgeons, I was told they believed my pars defect had been congenital (since birth). This was absurd, considering I had done extreme martial arts (including jiu jitsu) for years prior, as well as 5 years of reinforcing steel full time in my 20s, probably the hardest job on the back you can find. No pars defect like mine would possibly have allowed this--ergo it was impossible that I had had the defect since birth. I did however have an asymptomatic congenital spina bifida occulta that made me more susceptible to a pars fracture. In 2014 in one instant, I went from having the strongest back people I knew said they'd ever seen, to being unable to safely bend over and tie my shoe without a non-negligible risk of my spine slipping randomly (which would lead to weeks of pain after each occurrence). This was due to the unilateral L5 pars defect, otherwise known as spondylolysis. It was when lying in pain on the floor 4 years later after maybe the 6th spine slippage event post injury, that I had had enough, and resolved to have surgery. If Canada's "universal health care" said no, I would make lemonade from lemons, and find the very best surgeon in the world at pars repairs. That was Dr. Donald Corenman. Dr. Corenman back in 2018 ran a website https://neckandback.com/ that dedicated many pages to the science of every aspect of pars repairs, from eligibility (good discs on MRI), to best surgical techniques (minimal open compared to minimally invasive), best imaging to use (i.e., O-Arm with Stealth imaging vs. older fluoroscopy), the ideal amount of BMP to use and why not use too much or too little, and much more, all to do with pars repairs, pages upon pages of his site just on the pars, with scientific references and his own extensive expert opinion. As a health research statistician, I was very impressed with this. It was in stark contrast to the websites of other spine surgeons which barely gave the pars a word or two, focusing almost exclusively on fusions. I had found the best surgeon in the world for pars repairs, and so after Dr. Corenman personally screened my MRI to ensure my discs were healthy, I booked the surgery.

Being 46 years old at the time of surgery in 2018, with a 4-year-old pars fracture from 2014 combined with a congenital SBO meant my pars fragment was somewhat atrophied, but it was "very solid", said Dr. Corenman in the operative report. Nevertheless, it was challenging with two things to fix, the pars and SBO, and OR time was around 4 hours. Recovery over the following months was guided by a very clear "Spine binder" from the Steadman Clinic with strict rules of "no BLT" (no bending, lifting or twisting), and illustrated physiotherapy guidelines. They even warned patients to avoid fish oil supplements, which could excessively dampen inflammation and hence slow bone healing. They answered many questions I had during months of recovery, with responses coming from the very supportive Lori Fugate (then director of Dr. Corenman's practice), and Ehrich Bean (then physician's assistant at the practice), as well as a couple calls with Dr. Corenman himself after two of the CT scans. Ehrich Bean offered great advice for taking the spine binder conservatively due to the nature of pars repairs vs. fusions. The final post-op CT scan I had was a couple weeks ago at 34 months post-op, and Dr. Corenman had retired, but I got a very positive and informative call from Eric Strauch (current PA at the Steadman Clinic under Dr. Corenman's replacement there, and who had also worked with Dr. Corenman previously). The staff at the Steadman Clinic were extremely supportive all the way through the process. I should mention, the local Canadian spine surgeon did offer me very good post-operative support including antibiotics as needed to deal with a mild surface incision-site infection early on, booking numerous x-rays when I felt something was amiss, as well as booking all four of my post-op CT scans. I am very grateful for that support also.

My final result shows plenty of solid bone across the pars and a healed SBO, with my vertebral body now a solid bone ring instead of being broken at two places as it was pre-op. Does my spine hold up in the real world? You bet! I have recently dug and moved several yards of dirt and sand and gravel by myself (shovel and wheelbarrow!) to fix our water main, pulled roots from the yard, moved several "portable" (these are HUGE) air conditioners up several flights of stairs my myself, and lifted weights. I now run 2 miles (3.2 KM) several times weekly with a hard 100 meter dash in the middle. I bend deeply before each run I go on, with no spine slippage. My spine feels amazing. I can bend over to do exercise, or real word tasks, with no risk of spine slippage.

My sincere thanks to God, Dr. Donald Corenman, Lori Fugate, Ehrich Bean, Eric Strauch, and the Steadman Clinic, as well as the Canadian spine surgeon who offered me excellent post-operative care back in Canada. You have all given me a new lease on life.

Sincerely,
Eric S

Robert S

May 11, 2021

by Robert S on Donald Corenman, MD, DC

Back Fusion Surgery

I had my entire lumbar spine fused in November of 2018. I had scoliosis , with pinched nerves that were so painful I could hardly walk - and standing for more than a few minutes was impossible. Even sitting was painful.
The fusion surgery produced immediate relief! And the recovery was much easier than I expected.
To this day I can do all the activities I love from hiking, to standing in a stream fly fishing to riding my bike long distances - or just walking down the street with my wife.
Kudos to Dr. Corenman and his staff, (including the two Erics) for taking such good care of me!

Leslie R

Jul 9, 2020

by Leslie R on Donald Corenman, MD, DC

TLIF

I had my TLIF surgery on 6/24/2020 by Dr. Corenman, I can not say enough good things about the Dr or his staff. I was always treated with respect and explained everything throughly, that made it easy for everyone to understand. I highly recommend Dr. Corenman and the Steadman Clinic.

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